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Author Topic: Shooting Skills for Tactical Choices...  (Read 3352 times)

Offline JTH

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Shooting Skills for Tactical Choices...
« on: September 10, 2013, 11:08:01 AM »
The thread on "getting the gun out" made me curious.  How many people actually know their draw times from concealment?

The reason I'm asking is 1) I'm curious, and 2) time equates to distance.  If you have a fast draw, it means that you may have time to draw even with a close threat---but you won't know to make that choice if you don't know your draw time.

Choosing proper tactics means having a realistic appreciation of your skills---and so I'm curious as to how many people actually KNOW what their times are.

Another way of putting this---guy is standing 15 feet away, and will come at you the minute he sees you go for a gun.  If you back away as you do it, do you have enough time to get your gun out and put shots on target before he reaches you? 

How do you know?

Note:  this poll is not asking your draw times, so you don't need to worry about being embarrassed if you think you have a slow time.  On the other hand, if you are proud of your time (or just curious about comparisons) feel free to post it here.  This isn't a competition, though, and I'm more interested in how many people simply know their times.

(I've set the poll so that after answering, if you go out and find out your times, you can come back and change your answer.  :)  )
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Offline wallace11bravo

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Re: Shooting Skills for Tactical Choices...
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2013, 11:32:12 AM »

Note:  this poll is not asking your draw times, so you don't need to worry about being embarrassed if you think you have a slow time.  On the other hand, if you are proud of your time (or just curious about comparisons) feel free to post it here. 


Thank god. I can embarrass myself enough without your help :)

2.0 ish cold, 1.65/7 average. Keeping in mind that I don't practice it as much as I should, and I usually er with a smaller target further out (typically a 6" plate at 10 yards) with an LC9 which is not exactly a "good" gun. Still, just terrible :(

One thing I'll note, it also depends on what I am wearing. In the winter, you can easily add a half second to those times. If I am wearing my big crazy snow shoveling gloves, I'd probably be better off trying to hit him with the shovel.

I do actually know my slide lock reload time from concealment, but being as how I don't carry a spare mag on my person 95% of the time, I don't consider it relevant. The time is atrocious anyway. Really bad.

Offline JTH

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Re: Shooting Skills for Tactical Choices...
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2013, 01:02:46 PM »
Okay, about 18 people have looked at this---and the poll doesn't tell WHO voted, so come on, people, take the poll!  It isn't like you can be embarrassed by it!
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 01:12:35 PM by jthhapkido »
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Offline JTH

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Re: Shooting Skills for Tactical Choices...
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2013, 01:15:47 PM »
2.0 ish cold, 1.65/7 average. Keeping in mind that I don't practice it as much as I should, and I usually er with a smaller target further out (typically a 6" plate at 10 yards) with an LC9 which is not exactly a "good" gun. Still, just terrible :(   

Quite frankly, a 2 second draw from concealment isn't bad at all.  (Quite the contrary, really.)  That's a lot faster than most people.

In my case---I'm a cheater.  :)  (Those competition types, they always game things...)  I carry a full size gun, and am doing it from an appendix carry position---which gives about the best set of speed advantages you can get from your equipment placement and type.

Some of the reasons I chose that set of equipment is because I look stupidly obvious with pocket carry (and my draw times are ridiculously bad), and normal behind-the-hip IWB prints incredibly badly on me---but the main reason (after the fact that it conceals and is comfortable for me) is that it adds speed of access.  All other things being equal, appendix draw is simply faster.


Quote
One thing I'll note, it also depends on what I am wearing. In the winter, you can easily add a half second to those times. If I am wearing my big crazy snow shoveling gloves, I'd probably be better off trying to hit him with the shovel.

:)  I hear you.  I actually changed the winter coat I wear because the one that looks good on me pulls in at the waist---so I can't really draw from it.  [sigh]  Back to the coat that looks like a tent on me---but that I can draw from.  It is certainly slower than summer carry, though.

There's an idea for a different thread, though---in winter, do you change how you carry due to gloves/heavy coats etc?

Quote
I do actually know my slide lock reload time from concealment, but being as how I don't carry a spare mag on my person 95% of the time, I don't consider it relevant. The time is atrocious anyway. Really bad.

Hey!  You answered incorrectly on the poll, then!  Bad shooter!

My slidelock reload is only about 0.1-0.2 slower than my speed reload (from concealment), once I figured out the correct technique for a left-handed person in a right-handed gun world.  That being said, while I know my time and it isn't that bad---in summer, I often don't carry an extra magazine either. 

Not necessarily the best tactical choice, but it certainly makes for a more comfortable summer.  (In winter I add an extra magazine, because concealment and comfort isn't as much of a problem.)

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Offline bullit

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Re: Shooting Skills for Tactical Choices...
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2013, 02:57:17 PM »
Yes sir....can you please qualify if you want my times using "Aimed Fire" or "Point Shooting"? Bustin' you chops.....

Offline JTH

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Re: Shooting Skills for Tactical Choices...
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2013, 03:02:40 PM »
Yes sir....can you please qualify if you want my times using "Aimed Fire" or "Point Shooting"? Bustin' you chops.....

At that range, hitting the target.  Whatever method you need to use to manage that result.

[sigh]

TAKE THE POLL!  Sheesh.
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Offline bullit

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Re: Shooting Skills for Tactical Choices...
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2013, 04:54:45 PM »
TAKE THE POLL!  Sheesh.

Letting that Board nomination go to your head already....  : P

Offline JTH

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Re: Shooting Skills for Tactical Choices...
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2013, 05:53:08 PM »
Letting that Board nomination go to your head already....  : P

Hey, with any luck they'll vote someone else in, and I'll get some of my free time back.  :)
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Offline camus

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Re: Shooting Skills for Tactical Choices...
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2013, 06:48:52 PM »
I have never timed a slide lock reload from concealment and spares are typically carried in an inconsistent manner, so I wouldn't know which one to time.


My IWB times with a t-shirt or polo are pretty close to my owb competion holster times on a 10" plate at 7 yards. Now I can shave that down a whole lot more with OWB when I get warmed up.

Offline HuskerXDM

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Re: Shooting Skills for Tactical Choices...
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2013, 07:14:29 PM »
My cold draw from concealment is about 2.2 seconds and average can get down in the 1.9-2.0 range.
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Offline abbafandr

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Re: Shooting Skills for Tactical Choices...
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2013, 07:48:18 PM »
I had my wife time my draw from concealment on my last outing to ENGC, but it was the first time she  had used the phone app timer.  So I'm not positive enough with the times to trust them yet.  Will try again shortly and vote.

Offline gsd

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Re: Shooting Skills for Tactical Choices...
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2013, 09:49:53 PM »
I dont know either, mainly because I have never actually given it serious thought or timed it. At the range, if no one is in the lane next to me, I will occasionally draw and fire from concealment to maintain the skillset. 
It is highly likely the above post may offend you. I'm fine with that.

Offline Lorimor

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Re: Shooting Skills for Tactical Choices...
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2013, 03:46:30 PM »
Okay cheater, I'll chime in. :)

This AM, after performing an almost perfectly executed "O.A.F."* drill, I ran a series of draws at 6 yards on a 5.5" paper plate.  Cold was 2.34.  Fastest was 1.89 seconds and slowest was 2.95 (badly muffed.)  (Probably averaged about 2.2 seconds but I didn't do the necessary calculations.) 

Most of the range work this AM was WHO as the OAF drill left my strong hand somewhat bent, bruised and sore (but it provided an excellent opportunity to flex my sailor talk muscles.)  But I did run a FAST drill as the grand finale and got an 8.32 clean run from 7 yards. 

I do it all wrong too.  Drawing from a leather IWB on the hip, worn under a "Major League Infidel" t-shirt, a  1911 in .45 ACP  (God bless John Moses Browning) and "hand over slide" release. (3.59 second slidelock reload! Woohoo!!!!)  :)  .30 splits on the 6" circle.  However, my first shot on target was 3 seconds.  The 3x5 area (which measures 3.75" and 2.25" on my printed repros of the FAST target) is pretty small.  I REALLY have to slow down and find that front sight, which I am loathe to do.  :)

* And for you noobies who don't know what an OAF drill is, it is an "Optimized Anti-FAST" drill.  You begin by tangling your feet in your brass catcher net you pretended to accidentally drop in your path and you fall down, making sure your strong hand is entangled in the net, preventing it from breaking your fall yet allowing the fingers to be bent back approx. 144 degrees as you hit the hard packed earth.  You are allowed 5 minutes to lie on your back to scream, yell, cry, cuss and otherwise protest your situation before resumption of shooting.   Seasoned shooters will run this drill first thing to get it out of the way. 
« Last Edit: September 11, 2013, 03:50:16 PM by Lorimor »
"It is better to avoid than to run; better to run than to de-escalate; better to de-escalate than to fight; better to fight than to die. The very essence of self-defense is a thin list of things that might get you out alive when you are already screwed." – Rory Miller

Offline camus

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Re: Shooting Skills for Tactical Choices...
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2013, 08:38:26 PM »


* And for you noobies who don't know what an OAF drill is, it is an "Optimized Anti-FAST" drill.  You begin by tangling your feet in your brass catcher net you pretended to accidentally drop in your path and you fall down, making sure your strong hand is entangled in the net, preventing it from breaking your fall yet allowing the fingers to be bent back approx. 144 degrees as you hit the hard packed earth.  You are allowed 5 minutes to lie on your back to scream, yell, cry, cuss and otherwise protest your situation before resumption of shooting.   Seasoned shooters will run this drill first thing to get it out of the way. 

Serious now, can you run this drill only if you are using a 1911?

Offline Lorimor

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Re: Shooting Skills for Tactical Choices...
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2013, 03:56:05 AM »
Serious now, can you run this drill only if you are using a 1911?


Actually you can run any handgun but the 1911 gives you an added advantage.  Since it has more mass than the typical poly gun, you hit the ground with more force. 

F=ma and all that jazz.

"It is better to avoid than to run; better to run than to de-escalate; better to de-escalate than to fight; better to fight than to die. The very essence of self-defense is a thin list of things that might get you out alive when you are already screwed." – Rory Miller

Offline wallace11bravo

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Re: Shooting Skills for Tactical Choices...
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2013, 09:16:19 AM »
* And for you noobies who don't know what an OAF drill is, it is an "Optimized Anti-FAST" drill.  You begin by tangling your feet in your brass catcher net you pretended to accidentally drop in your path and you fall down, making sure your strong hand is entangled in the net, preventing it from breaking your fall yet allowing the fingers to be bent back approx. 144 degrees as you hit the hard packed earth.  You are allowed 5 minutes to lie on your back to scream, yell, cry, cuss and otherwise protest your situation before resumption of shooting.   Seasoned shooters will run this drill first thing to get it out of the way. 


Funniest thing I've read in a while.

Offline greg58

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Re: Shooting Skills for Tactical Choices...
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2013, 09:48:19 AM »
How do I slidelock and reload my revolver?

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Offline JTH

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Re: Shooting Skills for Tactical Choices...
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2013, 10:40:59 AM »
How do I slidelock and reload my revolver?

Step 1:  Get a better gun
Step 2: ??
Step 3:  Profit!!

....in all seriousness, the situation is that you have run out of ammo completely, and need to get the gun back into working order.  So---start the timer, shoot the revolver until empty, reload it completely, and take a couple of shots.  (All shots need to be on target.) 

Go back to your timer and find the split that corresponds to your reload time.  (Do this cold.  None of that "practicing the reload" stuff before you try to find your time.)    Don't only perform a  "one shot, reload, one shot" drill.  Your times will be different if you do that, and not really indicative of reality.

That's the question, really---what is your skill level right now, and what would it be under stress (at least a little), without having warmed up or practiced first?
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Offline greg58

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Re: Shooting Skills for Tactical Choices...
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2013, 12:38:53 PM »
Step 1:  Get a better gun

I knew you would say that, just funnin with you anyway.
I do have higher capacity guns, however my J frame S&W snubnose is one of my favorites.
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Offline JTH

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Re: Shooting Skills for Tactical Choices...
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2013, 01:47:43 PM »
I knew you would say that, just funnin with you anyway.

:)

Quote
I do have higher capacity guns, however my J frame S&W snubnose is one of my favorites.

Lots of people carry those, and really love them.  Probably the most commonly-carried handgun out there.

(I am a capacity snob, and I know it.  For lots of reasons, but for a local one:  I just keep remembering the Walgreens situation in which 8 shots were put toward one target---and there were two targets.  BUT, that's my choice, and no one else needs to agree with me.)
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