Realistic training... essential to truly surviving situations

[ProtoPatriot]

Been watching a few of these videos and they have some great information...though of course they don't tell you everything and you don't get the real experience...which is key to learning... but it's still good info and goes over things people don't really think about all the time.


First Person Defender - GunTalkTV


Anyone know of a place that goes into this detail around eastern NE?

88 Tactical does some similar type things, but I don't think they go to this level with the simunition...but I haven't been out to them to see exactly what they go into, so I don't know exactly.

[Lorimor]

Simunitions aren't available to the Average Joe.  But AirSofts are.  JTHapkido has some classes along these lines. 

[sjwsti]

Once 88 Tactical gets their new building built in Omaha we will have a very large area specifically for FOF training. We will be using UTM marking rounds in both handgun and rifle configurations for training.

I have an advanced Level 3 class scheduled at The Bullet Hole on Oct 20th that has some scenarios were the students are armed with airsoft. Since its the only one I will be doing there this year I have changed the requirements to attend. The only prerequisite is that you have a CCW.

http://www.thebh.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=14

- Shawn

[ProtoPatriot]

Simunitions aren't available to the Average Joe.  But AirSofts are.  JTHapkido has some classes along these lines. 

They may not be readily available, but when taking a class like those in the show, they would have them...of course. The cost of the simunition would be included in the course fee and supplied by the instructor/school.

As nice as airsoft is (even though it's nothing truly like firing a real firearm... I always laugh at people that go and say "I play airsoft" but then they have no idea what a real firearm is like and still think they have a clue and would be able to do everything the same...I call it the "video game mentality"), the closer to real life the better....airsoft (and even paintball) doesn't quite reach that of simunition.

But I guess, you work with what you got.

Once 88 Tactical gets their new building built in Omaha we will have a very large area specifically for FOF training. We will be using UTM marking rounds in both handgun and rifle configurations for training.

I have an advanced Level 3 class scheduled at The Bullet Hole on Oct 20th that has some scenarios were the students are armed with airsoft. Since its the only one I will be doing there this year I have changed the requirements to attend. The only prerequisite is that you have a CCW.

Well, that's something at least getting somewhat close... would probably attend...if I had any money at all right now.

But still, having the ability to go outside, use vehicles, alcoves, and such would be extremely beneficial to getting the real feel to really understand what is going on in indepth detail.

[Lorimor]

Doing a little research, it appears that Simunitions has a "range program" that allows qualified range operators/instructors to use Simunitions. 

Unfortunately, there are none in Nebraska presently.

http://simunition.com/en/range_program/united_states

[sjwsti]

We looked at Sims, but the initial expense of conversion kits, safety equipment, ammo and certifications was more than with UTM. Also, my personal experience has been that Sims isnt all that reliable. UTM seems to have built a better mousetrap with its bottleneck cartridge and is who we will eventually go with. But ultimately either is an expensive proposition. $200 or more per conversion, hundreds more in safety gear and .50 cents per round minimum. Cost vs benefit has to be a consideration.

Are Sims more realistic than airsoft? Sims is a little louder, hurts a little more (depending on how many layers of clothes you put on), can be shot a little farther and is a real gun. The biggest benefit imo is the durability of using an actual firearm. We have broken nearly a $1K worth of airsoft in our SERE classes alone.

Cons; Cost, and the extreme level of protection required to use it. Realistically, people dont walk around covered head to toe in padded gear. Having most of your peripheral vision obscured, not being able to read facial expressions or see pre fight cues is a definite drawback.

In our EDC Shoot/Dont Shoot class we use SIRT Pistols specifically so we dont have to gear everyone up and the students "see" everything. The distances are so close anyway that using airsoft or Sims would just be punishing the role players for nothing.

ProtoPatriot, I dont know how much FOF you have done and with what equipment. But I can say from personal experience, having been involved in hundreds of scenarios with airsoft and sims, the "realism" of the scenario had less to do with the equipment used, and more to do with how the scenario was run and how good the role players were.

There is FOF training available locally and at a very reasonable cost from PRT and 88 Tactical. Check out our Level 1 EDC Shoot/Dont Shoot class, we have one coming up on the 25th, I think you would find it beneficial.

https://88tactical.com/categories/21-primal-performance-series/courses/43-primal-performance-series-everyday-carry-level-1-omaha/

- Shawn

[ProtoPatriot]

ProtoPatriot, I dont know how much FOF you have done and with what equipment. But I can say from personal experience, having been involved in hundreds of scenarios with airsoft and sims, the "realism" of the scenario had less to do with the equipment used, and more to do with how the scenario was run and how good the role players were.

I have done a bit, but there is never a thing called "enough". And I agree there fully, it's more about the scenario and actors than equipment... was just thinking the simunition would be a great top off (based off premise, never actually gotten a chance to use it).

As you mentioned, got to way the costs and benefits then work with what you can.

What I was looking at more though than the simunition was the variety and realism of the scenario (i.e. less controlled scenarios more improve and variance...as life actually is). Such as using a vehicle (Carjacking and Parking Lot Danger episodes), door ways, alcoves (like the ATM Robbery episode), etc... being inside and outside and so on.  Got to have weather take a part as it can change the circumstance quite a bit....you know a little less controlled circumstances.

I know 88 tactical goes out and does some pretty good stuff, just haven't looked into things enough with them to see how detailed and far they go.

[JTH]

As Shawn has mentioned, Precision Response Training also teaches classes that include scenario training, force-on-force training, or scenario training with force-on-force training depending on the class.

Yes, we use AirSoft gas guns (and SIRT trainers) in those cases as opposed to Sims or anything like that.  As several people can tell you, those gas guns are no joke.  True, they aren't firearms.  However, pellets coming out at 350-450 ft/sec are no fun, either.  (Which actually, makes them rather like .22 CB rounds.)  The gas guns (unlike spring guns or electric ones) have reciprocating slides, at least a tiny bit of recoil, and actually make a fairly loud noise. 

Overall, it means you can work with something that in a minor way acts like a firearm--but isn't.  And you only need a good helmet with facemask to use them.  (If you get hit anywhere else it leaves welts that hurt quite a bit, but you don't need overall protective gear.) 

As Shawn said--the realism of the scenario and its actors far outweigh anything else with respect to training of this type.  I've heard any number of people talk about high stress, emotional reactions, and difficulty of response even in situations in which they KNEW the other actors wouldn't even be touching them.

I know that the scenarios I run are all taken directly from actual (and common, for at least the lower level classes) situations.  I assume 88 Tactical does the same.

I will say that while I strongly suggest scenario training for anyone interested in self-defense, and that force-on-force training is a very good idea---I don't consider it "essential to truly surviving situations".  Plenty of people each year survive and succeed in self-defense situations with considerably lower levels of prior training.  As such, it isn't "essential".

For most people, I'd first suggest going to a shooting skills class, to get the basic techniques down solidly, so that you are competent and quick with your self-defense firearm of choice.

That being said, I do certainly agree that scenario training (and force-on-force) can make a huge difference in people's ability to handle self-defense situations, and the stress that comes with them.  As such, I really wish more people WOULD undergo scenario training.  For most people, it is a real eye-opener.