General Categories > Shooting Sports
What I have experienced at shooting matches
jonm:
whoa now. You cant work with people like me if you can't understand what I am trying to say. If you read the first line I typed, I said " it's still a rule that has to be followed". Just because I dont agree with the rules, doesnt mean I dont follow them. I dont believe I should be forced to register my handguns with the city of Omaha, but I do it anyway because it's the law. There is a huge difference between ignoring and dis-agreeing.
If you go on to finish reading what I said, I am talking about that specific instance. Not during the course of fire, not dry fire practice on the dog, not any other time. You two are taking my statements and assuming I mean to apply them to every situation.
--- Quote from: jthhapkido on October 15, 2013, 09:45:51 AM ---
This, by the way, is how many people each year get shot with "unloaded" firearms.
--- End quote ---
Can you link me to a story where a competitor finished a run, removed his magazine, cleared his weapon, R/O said he was clear, closed the slide, put the hammer down, then shot themself.
--- Quote from: OnTheFly on October 15, 2013, 10:23:55 AM ---It is no different with gun handling. The purpose of the rules is not to establish a set of fundamentals that cover all situations and guarantee safety individually. That would be impossible. What each rule does do is put up a wall of swiss cheese, and as you know, swiss cheese has holes. These holes will allow errors through. The hope is that the holes in each of the rules (swiss cheese) never align to allow an error to bypass all layers of cheese. The same was true when I used to instruct in skydiving, and would be true in any higher risk sport...like shooting.
Fly
--- End quote ---
EXACTLY my point. Common sense needs to be applied. If not, you would not be allowed to draw or reholster from a dropped/offset holster because as soon as you do, the gun is pointed at a body part. Or you cant have any cant to your holster as it would break the 180* during draw and reholstering.
Again, I agree with the fact that in any type of USPSA match, it should be a disqualification. It is black and white in the rule book. I am just saying that it is a silly reason for a disqualification.
OnTheFly:
--- Quote from: jonm on October 15, 2013, 04:01:44 PM ---I dont believe I should be forced to register my handguns with the city of Omaha, but I do it anyway because it's the law.
--- End quote ---
Comparing a regulatory requirement established by anti-gun politicians to rules established after considering the history of gun accidents is hardly relevant. You follow the law because of the potential civil penalties or disobey them to protest them. You follow safety rules because it is the prudent thing to do.
--- Quote from: jonm on October 15, 2013, 04:01:44 PM ---I am just saying that it is a silly reason for a disqualification.
--- End quote ---
And this is the crux of our disagreement. I say what the shooter did is an unsafe practice, and that a correction from an RO is reason for them to think about their actions. Your contention is that it was not an unsafe act because the gun was "unloaded".
My swiss cheese analogy was a perfect explanation of why you follow, as much as possible, each of the rules all of the time. This means that none of the rules is ever "silly". I don't know your history, but I have considerable experience with "silly" rules, and the results of willful disobedience. Many aviation accidents can be explained by the chain of broken rules interspersed with human errors. Make one mistake...no big deal. Break one rule and combine that with mistakes...this is when accidents happen. So the best and safest practice is to INTENTIONALLY follow all the rules. You will make mistakes, but the facts prove that this is the only way to break the chain of events that lead to an accident.
ETA:
--- Quote from: jonm on October 15, 2013, 04:01:44 PM ---EXACTLY my point. Common sense needs to be applied. If not, you would not be allowed to draw or reholster from a dropped/offset holster because as soon as you do, the gun is pointed at a body part. Or you cant have any cant to your holster as it would break the 180* during draw and reholstering.
--- End quote ---
I agree that common sense must be applied. Dry fire practice is an example where you may point the gun at something that you really don't want to destroy. This is when you take obsessive precautions to make up for the rule you are violating. However, when you CAN apply the rules you DO...without exception. If that is silly, then my swiss cheese analogy is lost on you.
Fly
JTH:
--- Quote from: jonm on October 15, 2013, 04:01:44 PM ---
--- Quote from: jthhapkido ---This, by the way, is how many people each year get shot with "unloaded" firearms.
--- End quote ---
Can you link me to a story where a competitor finished a run, removed his magazine, cleared his weapon, R/O said he was clear, closed the slide, put the hammer down, then shot themself.
--- End quote ---
Don't need to. After all, the comment of mine that you quoted was directly after I said: "So---what you are saying is that you have no problem with how you handle a firearm (meaning in your hand) being based only on your knowledge of whether or not it is loaded?" ----and it directly was in response to that.
And again, you seem to be missing the point of the discussion. You seem to feel that you may handle a gun differently based on whether or not you "know" it is unloaded.
I disagree strongly.
Literally, many people get shot each year with guns that were being handled by people who "knew" they are unloaded.
I don't recall anywhere in the normal rules of gun safety a caveat that says "unless, of course, you know they are unloaded." Maybe you use a different set of rules---and that's fine. I'm not in charge of you, nor am I in charge of anyone's private life but my own.
I am happy, however, that in competitions people are required to safely handle firearms at all times, not merely when they think the gun is loaded. (The same is true in any class I teach. Where, I suppose, I AM in charge of other people's lives. And they have to do it my way.)
Everyone is of course able to do things their own way on their own time. But I personally don't particularly want to shoot with someone whose safety behavior is based on whether or not they think the gun is unloaded. If they'd point the gun at themselves, who knows if they'd point it at anyone else? After all, "it is unloaded."
If your response to that is "I wouldn't point it at YOU!" ---why not? You'd point it at yourself. How is it different?
Jonm, you are saying the rule is silly---correct me if I'm wrong here, but the crux of why you think this rule is silly is that numerous people have checked the gun, therefore it must be unloaded, so it is silly to DQ someone for sweeping themselves with an unloaded gun, because it isn't unsafe. Yes?
Here's how I look at that: this person doesn't have sufficient good practice with the rules of safe gun handling to not point the gun at himself. Therefore, we need to stop this person before he shoots himself later during this match/class/practice session.
I don't care if the gun is loaded or not. If you have insufficient muzzle control such that you point it at a human being (whether yourself or others), then you shouldn't be shooting at that time. Go back home and practice safe gun handling before you come back.
You seem to say that the gun being unloaded makes the shooter's actions no longer demonstrative of unsafe gun handling. I disagree. The actions haven't changed. He just was lucky that in this case the gun wasn't loaded and he didn't pull the trigger. So, he didn't break OTHER safe gun handling rules. Just the one about not pointing the gun at himself.
abbafandr:
--- Quote from: dcjulie on October 13, 2013, 10:53:08 AM ---Having said all of that -- we NEED MORE RO'S! Anyone who is shooting the matches with the ENPS at ENGC and are not ROs really should take the class.
--- End quote ---
I see where you're coming from. I don't know if I would be comfortable with being a RO. That being said, I will show up early and help set up; stay late and help tear down; design a stage occasionally; and when competing, help with all the stuff like pasting, painting and resetting targets. :)
bkoenig:
Through all of this I just keep remembering Nick sweeping Sean with the ketchup bottle a couple of weeks ago and declaring it was "big boy rules".
;D
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