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"USPSA is about speed, and IDPA is about accuracy..."
shooter:
IPSC is more like real life!!
:P
Lorimor:
--- Quote from: bullit on January 23, 2014, 03:42:27 PM ---
I've shot IDPA a long time. I decided a couple of years ago that I will never be Bob Vogel. That being said, I determined my goal at ANY match was to try and shoot it clean. Speed will come (and even then I am not gunning to win the world). For the most part I can go "down zero" or pretty close, to it. Due to lots of practice, I can also do fairly well with time so usually place in the top 5 in most low tier matches. That being said, I am not and never will be, competitive with guys like jthapkido due to his overall speed. As an example, our first IDPA match 2014, he was well 10 seconds faster than me, but many more points down due to "accuracy"(all due respect because even then he's not bad). I've never shot USPSA, so don't have a clue on how I'd do there. I do know in 3 guns back in the 5.11 matches of yesteryear in Columbus I was competitive, but not even close to Dennis Kirchoff who was both fast and accurate. A wise friend of all of us, one Chris Zeeb, summed it for me this way.... "If you're shooting perfect for accuracy you're shooting to slow". In short, there's a balance somewhere....his name was mentioned above....Bob Vogel.... :)
--- End quote ---
I know a sandbagger when I see one.
Ladies and gentlemen, if this man sidles up to you at a match and offers a friendly wager on the outcome, DON'T do it.
:)
He's a world class sidler btw.
Lorimor:
Now that I've got the obligatory Texas Sooner ribbin' out of the way, it's time to get somewhat serious. Finding that balance between speed and accuracy has been elusive, at least for me.
Like most, if I take my time, I can shoot fairly accurately. But add the time factor and the wheels start to come off. It's getting better but at a less than satisfying pace.
At this point in time, I believe I'm still looking for that perfect sight alignment and blaming less than stellar hits on imperfect sight alignment , so I slow down more. My conscious mind is driving.
In reality, it's actually less than stellar trigger control (and somewhat erratic recoil management) that's the real hindrance. I've got to learn to shutdown my conscious mind and let that "flash sight picture" have its way and just trust the sights will be there.
As Todd Green will tell ya, "Sometimes the fastest way to get fast is to go faster."
DVC!
JTH:
--- Quote from: bullit on January 23, 2014, 03:42:27 PM --- That being said, I am not and never will be, competitive with guys like jthapkido due to his overall speed. As an example, our first IDPA match 2014, he was well 10 seconds faster than me, but many more points down due to "accuracy"(all due respect because even then he's not bad).
--- End quote ---
In my defense, I shot like crap at that match.
Um. That didn't come out quite like I meant.
:-[
He's completely right, though----I shot with decent speed, but incredibly poor accuracy at my first IDPA match. I was 25 points down, which was a huge 17 points down more that bullit. (In my accuracy's defense, I was only 13 points down for the January match. Still not great, but better.)
In that first IDPA match, I actually had 3 mikes between the two stages. And yet, overall in the match, I still placed 20.69 seconds faster than the second-place shooter. (And my whole match only took 51.85 seconds, so basically I could have shot one of the stages over, added the time, and still won the match.)
If this had been USPSA, those mikes would have KILLED me. (Relatively speaking.) I still would have been fast enough to place first---but the second place shooter would have been a LOT closer to me.
Math time: In the IDPA match, the 2nd place shooter had 71.5% of my score. If this were USPSA, they would have gotten 84.9% of my score, because my poor accuracy (in that match! really, I'm not normally that bad!) would simply have hurt me more in USPSA.
My original post wasn't a "this sport is better, this sport is worse" comment----it was just a comment that people who toss off a "IDPA is about accuracy, while USPSA is about speed" comment really should think about that before they say it.
Both sports reward speed AND accuracy. At any serious match, you have to be both fast, and accurate.
And yes, people like Bob Vogel and Jerry Miculek are both good examples of that.
.
.
.
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Bullit has an interesting comment there about shooting matches----he said his goal was to shoot them clean. I have a different goal---I shoot them to win.
I note (before everyone thinks that I'm being condescending to bullit) that both goals are perfectly decent ones for shooting competitions, and neither one is better than the other.
A competition match like IDPA or USPSA sets up a shooting problem, and make you solve it under stress and pressure. As such, that situation can be used for a NUMBER of different goals. However, you generally can't do them all at the same time. As such, people who are working on "excellent accuracy under stress" normally can't also work on "winning this match" just like those folks can't also work on "realistic self-defense tactics" at the same time.
Oddly enough, those three things are related, but as primary goals, are mutually exclusive.
A couple of years ago, Caleb Giddings had a publicized goal for himself of shooting down zero at IDPA matches for the year. He stopped it after not too long, because it was making a HUGE difference to his ability to place well and win at matches. Taking the time to ensure top-level accuracy (as opposed to doing enough to get almost all of the points, but not perfecting every shot) meant that he was never in the running to win the match.
Practicing good self-defense tactics would mean getting full points for the match, but having to shoot many extra rounds to get there. What, when you pie around a corner, you don't start by taking shots immediately, you instead wait until the center zone is available? Why? If you can put three shots into the bad guy when the first one may be a "down three" or "D" hit and the other two are A-hits--but that first one is faster AND it means you get a shot into him before he can see you, shouldn't you be doing that? Waiting until the perfect center shot comes is NOT good SD tactics.
...so it would be slower. (Much.) You won't win a match that way---and, you'll note, it will be VERY different from a "perfect accuracy" goal, too, which will ALSO end up slower. Perfectly decent goals, and a action sports match is a great place to practice either one of those---because you are having to solve someone ELSE'S shooting problem, under their rules.
You can't simply set up your favorite drill and burn it down because you like it and are used to it. You have to step up in front of other people, and under that minor stress (plus the minor stress of a timer) ---perform.
My goal personally is to win (or at least do well for my level) at the match. My personal belief is that neither USPSA nor IDPA in any way resemble realistic self-defense training, and so I don't treat them like it. In my opinion, what they are are shooting skills tests, not any kind of training.
If it was training, I could run it, critique my run, practice some individual parts that I screwed up, take it in sections perfecting my actions and skills, then run it multiple times more as I get better at those actions and skills.
Yeah, well, in USPSA and IDPA you get ONE shot at it. (Hence the stress.) You get one shot to get it right. And if your shooting skills are up to the task, it'll go well. If not----well, then, you'll get a good lesson on what shooting skills you need to work on.
Do these sports test all shooting skills? Of course not. Are some of the skills that they test irrelevant to self-defense skills? Sure. So what? Both test your ability to rapidly put shots on target under stress.
Will you get information about what self-defense tactics you need to improve? No, not at all. Do the movements and actions in either sport actually match good self-defense choices? No, not really. (Don't tell me things like "but what about cover?!"---if you use cover in IDPA like people do to win matches, you are NOT using it correctly for self-defense.)
In my opinion (so take that for what little it is worth), matches are great because they are fun, you get to hang around with great people, and they tell you straight out what your shooting skills are like. I wish everyone who wanted to be a shooter would compete, because quite frankly (as has been said before) most people who own guns really are merely gun owners, they are NOT shooters.
Wow, that turned into a long diatribe, didn't it?
Anyway, short form: All sorts of goals to work toward in shooting competitions. Most are mutually exclusive, but all are equally worthy. (Though they don't all get the same recognition at the end of the match.) Different goals will lead to different outcomes. Occasionally, trying different goals will give you a better viewpoint of your own skills. (For example, I think in February, bullit should try to win the match. That doesn't mean "shot wildly as fast as possible" it means "trust your sights and MOVE, don't sit there and check the targets afterward or get those cool-looking 1-inch groups on the targets---put two in the down zero, and move on." I bet he'd be surprised at how his accuracy stays about the same, but his time drops sharply. :) )
JTH:
--- Quote from: Lorimor on January 23, 2014, 06:49:45 PM ---At this point in time, I believe I'm still looking for that perfect sight alignment and blaming less than stellar hits on imperfect sight alignment , so I slow down more. My conscious mind is driving.
In reality, it's actually less than stellar trigger control (and somewhat erratic recoil management) that's the real hindrance. I've got to learn to shutdown my conscious mind and let that "flash sight picture" have its way and just trust the sights will be there.
--- End quote ---
A guy named Andy Stevens originated the idea for what I'm about to say, and I say a version of it in every shooting skills class I teach:
Lots of people think that accuracy is based on your sights, and speed is based on how fast you can pull the trigger---and that's completely wrong, and worse yet, backwards.
Speed is based on how fast you can confirm that the sights are on target. Accuracy is based on how well you pull the trigger without disturbing the sights.
If you drive the gun to the target, and once it is there, work the trigger without disturbing the sights, you'll have good, fast hits. If you think that pulling the trigger fast is the key to speed, then 1) you will be slow because getting the sights on target is what makes you fast, and 2) you will miss a lot because trigger control is completely the key to accuracy.
...which is why I can't shoot accurately these days, because my trigger control (for several reasons) has dropped significantly recently. I can still shoot FAST, because I get the sights to the target quickly. But once I'm there, my trigger control is pulling me off target. (And it is obvious when I watch video of myself.)
I don't need to slow down---I need to control my trigger. I'm betting the same is true for you, Lorimor.
(I note that I think the concept of "flash sight picture" is either wrong, or at least normally taught in such a way that it is detrimental to actual accuracy. That's a different topic, though. :) )
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