Accidental Shooting

[bkent]

Saw this on the news tonight.

http://m.ketv.com/news/1-hurt-in-accidental-shooting-outside-iowa-school/-/17419034/24104876/-/byj48pz/-/index.html

Kent

[bkent]

Here's more to the story. Ex-cop and CCW instructor.

http://www.omaha.com/article/20140124/NEWS/140129104/1707

Kent

[camus]

"Good, the parent of a student at the school, was inside his vehicle when the gun fired, said Devin Embray, superintendent of Glenwood Community Schools."


The gun fired? We have got to talk to these guns.



"Police are investigating why he had the weapon, a 9 mm handgun, on school property and what caused it to fire."



Booger finger would be my guess.

[OnTheFly]

The gun fired? We have got to talk to these guns.

Human interaction, most likely, but not necessarily a finger in the trigger.  A untucked shirt tangled up with the gun during holstering, and then a person later noting the gun is not fully seated in the holster giving it a push could cause a bang.  Not as likely I will grant you, but plausible.

I am making a big assumption, but being a firearms instructor, it is likely he had a CHP.  So being in his car with the gun (holstered or not) would be perfectly legal.  This might be the example of the added danger imposed by law due to the permit holder having to unholster and reholster the gun prior to going into the school.

Fly

[SS_N_NE]

There are numberous examples of a mushy holster, retension, garment or misplaced finger getting into the trigger guard with a firearm discharge. Usually the result of too much comfort with holstering.

The whole "shooting at a school" is a sensation story for the news no matter how it happens.

[RedDot]

The whole "shooting at a school" is a sensation story for the news no matter how it happens.

Exactly

[Gary]

Whenever possible, it is safer to leave your handgun in a holster, and remove the holster and gun as a unit, than removing gun from holster.  Granted, depending on carry, this may or may not be possible.

Anyone want to wager what brand of handgun this neglect discharge involved?

It was a Glock, or a 1911 cocked and locked (lock had come off).  Those two guns seem to be at the forefront of what is called Glock Leg. 

A week ago, a police chief shot himself in a gun store.  He was comparing his gun, to a gun that was for sale.

This is the second time in 15 years he shot himself.   

http://jobs.aol.com/articles/2014/01/21/connersville-police-chief-shoots-himself-again/?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000058&

[NENick]

I can't count the number of times I have told fools to tuck their shirts in because they're getting caught in their holster. They always want to argue... It's not the Glock's or 1911's fault, Gary.

[JTH]

Anyone want to wager what brand of handgun this neglect discharge involved?

It was a Glock, or a 1911 cocked and locked (lock had come off).  Those two guns seem to be at the forefront of what is called Glock Leg. 

Seems to me that we don't have any information about this.  Correct?  As such, speculating (and assigning blame in the manner of "it WAS a...") is not only useless, but detrimental to actually understanding the issue.

We don't know why the gun discharged.  We don't know what he was doing at the time.  We don't know what kind of gun it was.  As such, any commentary is pure speculation, and should not be phrased as definitive answers.

True?

A week ago, a police chief shot himself in a gun store.  He was comparing his gun, to a gun that was for sale.

This is the second time in 15 years he shot himself.

Yep.  This is already a topic of conversation in another thread.  I am at a loss as to its relevance here, as it has nothing to do with this thread's topic and we have no idea of the circumstances of the original topic's ND. 

[Gary]

I can't count the number of times I have told fools to tuck their shirts in because they're getting caught in their holster. They always want to argue... It's not the Glock's or 1911's fault, Gary.

It in not the fault of an imamate object, you are correct.   It is when the imamate objects start to dance around triggers, that seems to be the problem. 

Training?  Well, at Big Shots a guy shoots himself under the watchful eye of an NRA Counselor, while taking a state approved CHP class.  That is pretty high up the totem pole.  What happened in that situation?

First of all, when guns and ammo mix, you have the potential of gunfire.  Given.  Training, equipment, knowledge, skills, attitude, all come into play.  Yet..............

.............we still get negligent discharges.  Why?  What is the answer?

On my range, it is not one thing, it is many things.  However, I am not immune, and I hope, through diligence, it does not come visiting at my door. 

I had a guy in my shop today.  He said he got his CHP down the street.  I will not mention the place.  He does not post here, that I have seen.  He said the trainer was more of a comedian than a trainer.   One joke after another.  Said guns never got in the hands of the students, till they were on the range, and many did not know how to shoot, load ammo, or use a gun. 

Until we get a better level of trainers, or the trainers we have "Grow up" and get serious, ND's in school yards and ranges will continue. 

Correct , we do not know all the facts in this case.  However, what contributory circumstance could possibly have taken place in this case, that the operator of the gun was not at fault?  None that I am aware of. 

[Lorimor]

People grow up on a poisonous diet of TV and Hollywood gun handling and begin to believe that's how it is. 

Then too, many people are starting to carry now who have never had much to do with firearms previously.   Growin' up with guns is no guarantee of competence for that matter either. 

It's a matter of attitude.  One cannot delude oneself into believing AD's only happen to "the other guy." 

Get training.  Instill good gunhandling habits and discipline. 

And the damn thing isn't a toy (as I was told by some guy yesterday.) 

[JTH]

It in not the fault of an imamate object, you are correct.   It is when the imamate objects start to dance around triggers, that seems to be the problem. 

 
I can't even tell what that is supposed to mean.

Correct , we do not know all the facts in this case.  However, what contributory circumstance could possibly have taken place in this case, that the operator of the gun was not at fault?  None that I am aware of. 

Correct.  So why did you make it about the gun type in the first place?

[Gary]

Knowledge, Skills, Attitude.

Any NRA trainer can verify this principle by looking at his own hat.

Knowledge, and Skill is nothing without a good Attitude. 

Attitude is not something that can be imparted in an 8 hour class.

A persistent bad attitude is the mark of a bad trainer.

[Gary]

People grow up on a poisonous diet of TV and Hollywood gun handling and begin to believe that's how it is. 

Then too, many people are starting to carry now who have never had much to do with firearms previously.   Growin' up with guns is no guarantee of competence for that matter either. 

It's a matter of attitude.  One cannot delude oneself into believing AD's only happen to "the other guy." 

Get training.  Instill good gunhandling habits and discipline. 

And the damn thing isn't a toy (as I was told by some guy yesterday.) 

Someone robbed a Sonic Drive In Friday evening with a red tipped childs toy gun.  The staff handed over the money.   I personally find that hard to believe anyone would not chase the guy with the toy gun away.

[AWick]

This was posted in the comment section of that article. Take it for what it's worth. It still doesn't explain everything.

Anonymous
2 days ago
?
It was an accident knowing inside information being family he forgot he had his firearm went to take the round out of the pipe the gun hit the steering wheel and ACCIDENTLY went off. Could happen to any of us!

[NENick]

This was posted in the comment section of that article. Take it for what it's worth. It still doesn't explain everything.

It will never happen to me because my finger will never be near the trigger of my pistol, and the barrel will never be pointed at my body.

[JTH]

Knowledge, Skills, Attitude.
Any NRA trainer can verify this principle by looking at his own hat.
Knowledge, and Skill is nothing without a good Attitude. 
Attitude is not something that can be imparted in an 8 hour class.
A persistent bad attitude is the mark of a bad trainer.

Unless that was supposed to be a personal dig at me, I'm not sure of the relevance.    I'll note that in my opinion, making unsupported comments phrased as facts along with factually incorrect comments is a more obvious sign of a bad trainer.  Don't take that as a personal dig, because of course you don't do those things.


So, again I ask:

What does this mean?

It in not the fault of an imamate object, you are correct.   It is when the imamate objects start to dance around triggers, that seems to be the problem.

And since you say:

However, what contributory circumstance could possibly have taken place in this case, that the operator of the gun was not at fault?  None that I am aware of. 

...then why did you start off by saying:

Anyone want to wager what brand of handgun this neglect discharge involved?

It was a Glock, or a 1911 cocked and locked (lock had come off).  Those two guns seem to be at the forefront of what is called Glock Leg. 

...especially when you have no idea if it was a Glock or a 1911?  "It was a..." ---you don't know that, any more than the rest of us does.

Now, it wouldn't surprise me if it was a Glock.  He's a retired police officer, and many departments go with Glocks, and many people carry Glocks.  However, that really has nothing to do with why he had an ND.  (After all, Glock's triggers don't press themselves any more than any other gun.) 

I note also that saying "Glock leg" is another way of saying "a number of police departments don't seem to understand you need to keep your finger off the trigger while holstering" which is where that actually came from.  Oddly enough, that'll happen with many guns (for example, revolvers and every other striker-fired gun out there), it just happened to be more obvious with Glocks because more police officers HAD Glocks.