ATF attempts to take sells records of 80% lowers from store...

[landon410]

http://fox5sandiego.com/2014/03/12/gun-store-owner-halts-federal-raid/

i hope the shop owner continues to stand his ground.

[AWick]

The CEO and founder of Ares Armor, Dimitri Karras, was in the USMC and is a proud "former" 0311. He served along side and is good buddies with one of my friends. He is also fighting an advertising free speech fight over his billboard with the city.

The issue the BATFE has with these lowers from his suppliers is that the polyemer is different colors for what stays and what gets removed from the trigger control group area. The BATFE got a warrant and raided EB Armoury because they lied and said they think that they machine a 100% lower and then fill in the holes after the fact. However, they actually mold the 80% lower around the off-colored "core" of the trigger control group area. Therefore, they never undergo the 5 necessary steps that the BATFE explicitly lists as the 80% requirement.

I'll also note that last year they ran into some really big and bad supply and customer service issues when Dimitri wasn't CEO. He since has taken back control of the company, issued an apology and has been extremely aggressive with his revamp of customer service. They aren't quite a Palmetto State Army, but they focus on higher end equipment and ballistic kelvar systems.

[tstuart34]

I did some more reading after you posted and came up with the same thing Wick did. Ares pissed off the local gov't. I think they might of had some other run ins with the ATF about 80% lowers and CNC milling... not for sure. But my take on everything is someone give the feds wrong info and it will take some time for it to clear up.... but I can also see 80% lowers going sky high!

[landon410]

i think you'll see an attempt to change the law about making your own firearms.

they'll say "you can still make it, but it'll have to be registered prior to starting"
they'll require serial #s on 80's BCG's barrels, etc

[thirtydaZe]

better load up.

[shooter]

 what I want to know is why are they keeping records of who they sell 80% to? maybe keep them a couple of months in case there is a problem, but then destroy them,,

[newfalguy101]

"records" could be a simple as a receipt book, or more likely, the spreadsheet on their computer. 

Or a copy of their computer generated receipts.

[AWick]

newfalguy101 has the right idea about records. Customer Service, taxes, general ledger, forecasting, production schedules, marketing back to your customers with discounts, etc. I don't sell things that aren't quite firearms, but I do design and sell things with sensitive equipment (high tech optical sensors) that falls under export regulation from the DOD and I have to keep a list of everywhere that they go.

[NE Bull]

http://www.thefederalistpapers.org/video-2/atf-raids-gun-store-despite-restraining-order-protecting-customer-list

Well, boys and girls. Big Brotha went in anyway! Under Force without notification.
Rights are totally up for interpretation I guess.
Video included.

""When ATF agents began nosing around Ares Armor and started asking questions, the store obtained a temporary restraining order prohibiting the agency from seizing its product line and customer list. A hearing was scheduled for March 20 to litigate the issue.

However, on Saturday, ATF agents raided Ares pursuant to an ex parte order — an order obtained without notice to the other party, in this case Ares — and did just what Ares feared, according to the amateur video below.""

[Husker_Fan]

Is there a link to the TRO? All I could find was a declaration by the owner. If he got a TRO from a state or county court, that won't be enforceable against the Feds. If he got one from a federal judge, I haven't been able to find it.

[Hardwood83]

Is there a link to the TRO? All I could find was a declaration by the owner. If he got a TRO from a state or county court, that won't be enforceable against the Feds. If he got one from a federal judge, I haven't been able to find it.

I understand the ATF prevailed upon the judge to make an exception for a warrant, which they got.

It's still complete BS. They have no right to that info unless & until they prove the 80% hunks of plastic were actually firearms. This is frightening and infuriating.

[FarmerRick]

Not sure I'd want one of those lowers anyway. Looks like it's made from the same stuff as composite decking is made from....   
This one lasted 2 shots.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1603648_The_ATF_can_HAVE_my_EP_Lower.html

[Hardwood83]

Sure- but let the marketplace decide they are junk. The fact the Fed gov is brazenly changing the rules to further their anti-freedom agenda should give everyone pause.

At best the ATF will get slapped by the courts and retreat. But sure appears they are testing the limits to see how far they can push it. At worst they have a serious chilling effect on any & all gun related e-commerce. Who wants to order something online if the Feds can monitor your purchases? 

[AWick]

So it turns out that after Ares Armor filed for the TRO, which they also were restrained by, that they had two ATF agents meet with them to discuss the 80% lowers and the customer list. Per the TRO, Ares had to maintain all of the records which the ATF was interested in as well as all of the EP Armory 80% lowers. Ares separated all of the stock into a separate storage room under lock and key and even OFFERED THE ATF TO TAKE SOLE POSSESSION OF THE KEY! They also set up a camera and offered the ATF a live feed into that camera so they know exactly were the inventory was located.

The ATF, desperately wanting the customer list instead basically said, yeah, nice try peons and went and got the TRO modified in an ex parte meeting with the Judge (ex parte means you're not present, only them, and you basically have no rights). They then executed the warrant, again obtained under false information, and took their goodies.

The two sides filed a joint motion for summary judgement since the TRO is now "moot" according to the judge... DUH, and I'll try to keep you all updated as this goes along.

This is something to definitely contact our Congressmen about. We can not stand by and let the ATF make up the rules as they go along. The ATF's decisions are more and more "arbitrary and capricious" and therefore illegal.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/01/daniel-zimmerman/when-a-shoe-string-is-a-machine-gun/

I did hear encouraging (well somewhat) news recently that the dudes in the NFA branch at the ATF want to do away with CLEO sign-off for NFA items. But I'm sure their bosses will have NONE of that!