Army marksmanship

[OnTheFly]

My son seems to be on a path to join the Army Guard in Lincoln.  He has been talking to a couple of friends who have already completed basic.  They are telling him about qualifying with the rifle and the different badges (Marksman, Sharpshooter, Expert).  He wants to qualify as high as he can since he has a touch of my CDO.

A few questions for our forum service members

Does anyone have information about the Army's current qualification requirements (hits/score required, target size, distance, etc?).  My Google-fu didn't turn up any solid details.

Any information about the equipment?  I told him that it may not be as easy as it seems if the range rifles are well used and abused. 

Other than doing anything unsafe, do they let you choose how you take the prone, kneeling, and standing shooting positions?

If anyone has suggestions or additional helpful information on how he can improve his score, I would be happy to hear it.

Thanks,
Fly

[Mudinyeri]

It's been a LOOOONG time since I qualified (Expert).  I suspect several things haven't changed:

1. They give you a rattle-trap rifle that's been used, abused and nearly had the lands and grooves shot out of it.
2. Some sort of malfunction will occur during your qualification.
3. The weather will suck.

I seem to recall standing in a pit and resting the rifle on sandbags to qualify.  So, technically, you're in the standing supported position.  That, of course, may have changed since 1984 or may be different from base to base.  Head and shoulders-sized targets popped up from behind berms and dropped when hit or when their time expired.

[NE Bull]

I think Wallace would be a great resource for this.

[OnTheFly]

I think Wallace would be a great resource for this.

What would HE know?! 

Fly

[Ronvandyn]

They give Army guys guns?  Since when?   

Ron

[wallace11bravo]

The Army Qual is a joke, IMO.

The Targets are Ivans (~30" X 16") from 150-300, and head and shoulders E-types for 50 and 100. Meters, not yards.

40 rounds total, 40 targets total. All scoring is hit-miss.
23 to get marksman (minimum passing)
30 to get sharpshooter
36 to get expert

20 rounds prone supported (sandbags)
10 rounds prone unsupported (can use the magazine, but I wouldn't recommend it)
10 rounds kneeling
As long as it is safe and not expressly prohibited, it is allowed, position wise. He will be wearing full kit.

The 300 only comes up four times, so you can miss it every time and still get expert. The targets are friggin huge and stay up for 3-5 seconds depending on how far away they are. There are some double targets, that come up at the same time at different ranges.

I never went to traditional basic, I went to Sand Hill: Infantry OSUT. A month after the surge was announced, and I wore a flack jacket from Vietnam. I can only share my experience there:

The equipment is indeed the crappiest of the crappy. Amazing how my rifle was turned in for armory reset AFTER qualification. I was sleep deprived. The actual marksmanship training was a joke. Keep in mind: Basic is just that: Basic. It is familiarization and indoctrination. You don't really gain any knowledge or skills, you just get to where there is a base for knowledge and skills to start.

OSUT was a fairly inconsequential part of my career, and I only remember bits and pieces. I couldn't tell you a single name of anyone that was there, or even which battalion I was in. It really just didn't matter compared to the training I received and experiences I had later on.

What MOS? If he is going combat arms, he will qual twice, once with irons and once with optic (a probably broken aimpoint).

Now for a bit of venting:

These days, it is a kinder, gentler, and lower budget army, so they will probably give him a red ryder BB gun to shoot a tin can at 5 feet, and give him a participation ribbon and a pat on the head if he does a bad job. But whatever, its not like the Army is supposed to be a war-fighting organization or anything.

[gsd]

Jeez John, tell us how you really feel:)

[OnTheFly]

I had the privilege of sitting next to a Ranger on a flight to Lincoln.  He related his frustration with the Army's fitness requirements.  He said that the Army was unhappy with the pass rate so they lowered the standards.  Pass rates went up...at least for a while until everyone got used to the new lower standards and set their sights lower.  Then pass rates fell right back to where they were previously.

Hmmmm.  There might be a lesson in there somewhere that could be related to raising children, government assistance, minimum wage, and a lot more I'm sure.

Fly

[shooter]

I was in the army 71-73, we had the same pop up targets, but they were so full of holes, when they flipped up. the top would keep going and fold the targets in half, back then most of the rifles were fairly new

[JTH]

Can't help it, have to derail the thread briefly...

10 rounds prone unsupported (can use the magazine, but I wouldn't recommend it)

Mags don't handle it well?  Gun is so banged up that it won't be reliable?

Reason I ask is because I use my mag as a prone support all the time in Multigun.    But, since I'm using PMAGs in guns that I've taken care of, that might be the difference. 

Or have you seen significant malfunction issues due to using the mag as a support in general with well-kept firearms and good mags?

[wallace11bravo]

Crappy mags and guns.

I also use that technique with my personal equipment, but the worn out junk at ITB is a different story.

[JTH]

Crappy mags and guns.

I also use that technique with my personal equipment, but the worn out junk at ITB is a different story.

Ah.  Good---well, at least good for those not at ITB.  (Knew it worked with my guns, didn't want to get used to it if that was merely a fluke.)

[DaveB]

I did basic in 75. Back then it was 40 rounds. I don't remember if it was yards or meters, but 10 rounds were at 100 standing. At 200, it was 20 rounds, 10 sitting and 10 prone. At 300 it was 10 rounds, all prone. We were shooting at paper targets with others sticking tape on them to cover the holes every 10 rounds. I hit 50 out of 50, but our rifles were somewhat new at that time. It was cold at Ft. Leonardwood in November too. And as far as a joke, it was not that bad for a bunch of 18 to 20 year olds at the time, and some had never shot guns before in their life. But we had to do more than 10 little pushups if we didn't say or do something right too.

I don't remember what was needed for Expert.

I know that shortly after I went through, they started some waiver program where if you didn't qualify, you went through anyway.

[Mudinyeri]

John's right, it's funny how indistinct some parts of Basic are now ... of course 30 years have passed since I completed Basic so a few things are bound to be fuzzy.  Now that shooter mentions it, though, I do remember the targets folding over or big pieces of them flopping around.

[RANGER 01]

I went thru basic at Ford Leonard Wood about this time of year. M1 GARAND 30-06. Days of practice with a wooden rifle then dry fire with the rifle and then live fire and then Qualify. I can only remember prone, setting, kneeling, standing. Yardage was 100, 200,300 but cant remember any more as it has been 55 year ago.
I do remember the Army's fitness was harsh but after 9 weeks you were built like a brick wall. Push-up's or pull-up's before each meal, plus 45 minutes of P. T. at 0500hrs every day. If you ever said Gun in place of Rifle shi* hit the fan. Break you down and then build you up the Army way.