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Concealed Carry and contact with Law Enforcement

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Gary:
There are apx 500 police officers killed in the line of duty each year. The number is higher, sorry I do not remember the exact annual average.

How many of these murders are part of a traffic stop and the outcome was not anticipated at the start of the traffic stop ?

Now, how many of these murders of LEOs were by licenced CHP holders?

From 1996 to date, I think the number of police officers killed by CHP holders is 14.   Was the last time I looked it up.

So, as a group, on average, CHP holders are not usualy a threat to LE.

JTH:
The below is not particularly relevant to this actual discussion, as the discussion assume a number of things about the LEO's state of mind, which in general, is not something you know.

However, I'm curious:


--- Quote from: Gary on July 22, 2014, 08:43:20 AM ---From 1996 to date, I think the number of police officers killed by CHP holders is 14.   Was the last time I looked it up.

--- End quote ---

Citation?  Where did you get this information?

I'll note that the only listing of "14" I can find is from the Violence Policy Center, a notorious anti-gun think tank.  And their listing of 14 is inaccurate as it includes cases where there has been no conviction.

In a number of the cases where there was a conviction, it was for various versions of manslaughter, which is a very different situation than murder.  Doesn't change the fact that an LEO was still killed, but it is rather different than VPC's contention that CCW holders murder LEOs.

And lastly, a number of those that were actual murders had nothing to do with concealed carry---the person just happened to also have a CCW permit, which had nothing to do with the crime itself.  However, since it supports the "concealed carry killers" narrative of the VPC, they include them.

(Oh, the VPC also includes includes cases where the criminal shouldn't have legally had a CCW permit in the first place, too.)

Main part of my point:  As almost none of these cases occurred in a traffic stop, I'm really not thinking it makes any difference to LEO's attitude about CCW permit holders during traffic stops.

Far as I can tell, only three of the cases were a murder that occurred with a concealed firearm.

Here's the VPC link:  http://www.vpc.org/fact_sht/ccwlawenforcement.pdf

Is this where you got your information?

Gunscribe:

--- Quote from: Gary on July 22, 2014, 08:43:20 AM ---So, as a group, on average, CHP holders are not usualy a threat to LE.
--- End quote ---

True, I agree completely.

The point I am making is having a CHP will not make a Peace Officer all warm and fuzzy as you suggest.

Yes, you have a CHP that was issued a year ago, two, four years ago. How do I know in that time you haven't committed any crimes that you haven't been caught for yet and when I pull you over you think the hammer is finally going to drop on your misdeeds because I lit you up.

It doesn't matter who you are or what permits you have, what collar you are wearing, or what tattoos you have, From the time I light you up until you depart the scene I will courteously and professionally treat everyone the same from awareness level "condition orange" until you have left the scene.

ILoveCats:

--- Quote from: Gunscribe on July 22, 2014, 11:21:41 AM ---It doesn't matter who you are or what permits you have, what collar you are wearing, or what tattoos you have, From the time I light you up until you depart the scene I will courteously and professionally treat everyone the same from awareness level "condition orange" until you have left the scene.

--- End quote ---

True, but I still think the concept of "good first impression" is a sound and relevant one from the perspective of the person being pulled over. I used to work at a "public counter" type environment and it was not a super-fun job, but it did tell you a lot about the science of "reading" people. After some experience you could pretty much tell how the encounter was going to go (if the person was prepared, legitimate, and going to get the benefit he was seeking) as he was walking up to the window and before he even opened his mouth. Clothing, posture, tattoos, mannerisms, smells, accent, figures of speech, eye contact and other "micro expressions" all can tell you an amazing amount of information in a couple of seconds. Many people use that instinct to some extent, and there is some very good training on reading micro expressions to help build on that human nature.

Only time I've ever been pulled over recently (and only second time in my life) was going through Omaha very late one night (~1:30am) after a delayed flight. A tail light was out and I didn't know it. Officer came along passenger side, saw me still in a suit and tie, heard me say that I was just heading home after a delayed flight from New York, glanced at my license and wished me a good evening. It was literally over about as fast as it took me to type that just now. He had bigger fish to fry apparently, and sped off before I could even get my license back in my wallet.

Would it have gone differently with some face tattoos, 20-inch rims and the driver's seat leaned way back? Yep.

Bottom line is, regardless of legal requirements, I don't know that it wouldn't hurt to have the license, registration and CHP all in hand as he's walking up, and, when asked for paperwork, say, "here you go sir, and by the way I'm a CHP holder too but not carrying anything today."

HuskerXDM:
Back on the original topic, I've had contact with a person who was at TWAW presentation and the presenter did NOT, according to her, say that you were required to notify an officer even if you aren't carrying. 

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