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Switching from a full-size to a pocket gun...

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SemperFiGuy:
You are welcome to carry Your Way.

I am welcome to carry Mine.

And all the Others, as they wish.

sfg

JTH:

--- Quote from: GreyGeek on September 17, 2014, 09:42:42 PM ---Yup.
That's what God gave us two hands, and a wife for. :)
--- End quote ---

--- Quote from: jthhapkido ---What's the draw time when you don't have your hand on the gun already?

--- Quote from: GregGeek ---Don't know.  Never let the gun out of my hand when I'm armed.
--- End quote ---

--- End quote ---

Hm.  I know that when I'm in a restaurant eating, I couldn't keep one hand in my pockets.  Similarly, when sitting in a movie theatre or getting gasoline at a station or picking up a bag of softener salt to put in the hatch of my car or unlocking my car door while holding something or signing a register receipt with my strong hand....

I just simply don't think I could always keep one hand in a pocket, much less keep my strong hand in my pocket all the time.

And the times in which I would be taken unaware would be most likely to be ones in which I was already doing something, while means they are the times most likely to have me using both hands, and not having my hand in my pocket.

For me, I just can't make the assumption that I'll have my hand in my pocket on my gun. 


--- Quote from: GreyGeek ---Nope.  No pocket holster.  Don't need it.  No jacket or shirt over it either.  It doesn't print, even if I left my hand out of the pocket, and with my hand in the pocket the outside of the pocket is flat.  I wear Levi jeans all the time.  The front pocket is big.  If any thing in my pocket prints it is the swiss army knife that sets in the bottom.
--- End quote ---

This Mosquito?

http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/mosquito.aspx

That's just about the size of a Glock 19----wow.  On me, even a tiny Beretta Tomcat prints, and I often wear cargo pants.  Baggy cargo pants.

I must admit, I'm not a personal fan of pocket carry without a holster---external safety or not.  I've seen to many cases where safeties have clicked off without the carrier meaning to do so, and exposed trigger guards make me cringe in general.  That's me, though---plenty of people carry without holsters, and that's the individual's choice.

I"m trying to think of what I would look like if I tried to pocket carry a G19 (like I said, about the same size as the Mosquito).  I'm thinking that people would come up to me and say things like "Shame about the tumor."  :)

JTH:

--- Quote from: SemperFiGuy on September 18, 2014, 10:25:49 AM ---You are welcome to carry Your Way.
I am welcome to carry Mine.
And all the Others, as they wish.

--- End quote ---

Absolutely.

This doesn't take away from the fact that when people make decisions regarding "their way" it is helpful to make those decisions informed ones, based on facts as best we know them.  And having a discussion about those facts often brings things to light that some folks didn't know.

As such, it is helpful to ask people to back up their opinions with what facts they have.  (Gotta love logic and facts!)  This doesn't mean that opinions not backed with facts are automatically wrong--but it is true  that it is helpful to check our opinions and compare them to the research that is available.

For example, I think that for concealed carry, draw speed is important.  (Home/business defense, less so.)    In a fairly long thread over on p-t.com, Tom Givens (of Rangemaster, and one of the few people I know who has a large enough database of student CCW actions to make conclusions from) chimed in with:

"Most of the time, if you need your gun to defend your life, it will be in the holster when you perceive that need. You will have a finite amount of time to deal with the problem. The longer it takes you to get your gun out, the less time you will have for decision making and accurate shooting. Duh...

Less than 10% of our student involved shootings have occurred in the home. The vast majority occur on the street, where your gun will be carried concealed in a holster. Armed robbery is probably the single most likely incident in which a civilian CCW would need a gun. According to the Justice Department, 85% of those occur away from home. So, since you'll be starting your response with a holstered handgun, how would access speed not be a major issue? "

..and was followed by a number of other good posts, including a useful discussion.

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2531-Importance-of-a-fast-draw-in-self-defense&p=41085&viewfull=1#post41085

This entire thread started with the "3 seconds, 3 yards, 3 shots" drill based on a common set of statistics for CCW self-defense situations.  While the pocket guns version started with the gun at low ready, the standard version does NOT, and for good reason.  (Most people don't have their gun out prior to finding out they are going to need it.)

If the whole thing is over in three seconds, I'm thinking the sooner into that situation I am firing on target, the better it will be.  If I have a four second draw, then----I'm probably never going to get to my gun.

Other comments by Todd Louis Green:

http://pistol-training.com/archives/3516

Regarding Israeli carry:  Not a fan.  Not only because of timing purposes (It is slower and/or less accurate.  Period.) but because it presupposes the ability to rack the slide, and I might not have time, an extra hand, or something else may be missing such that I can't get the gun able to fire. 

That's me, though.

Interesting discussion here regarding that:  http://pistol-training.com/archives/219

I personally think that in this day and age of reliable technology and molded holsters, the need for carry with an empty chamber by practiced individuals is gone.  Opinions vary, of course.  :)

Overall, my question to SFG would be (a one science person to another):  You said "But fast enough under the circumstances." ----how do you know what you know?  Is that based on facts known from research regarding CCW and self-defense?  If so, could you please tell me what those are?  Because that contradicts the knowledge base I have, and if there is additional research out there that I don't know about, I'd like to be informed!

I like making decisions based on facts.  If I'm missing facts, please help!

GreyGeek:

--- Quote from: jthhapkido on September 18, 2014, 02:50:27 PM ---I like making decisions based on facts.  If I'm missing facts, please help!
--- End quote ---

One caliber, gun size or method of draw does NOT fit all.  If you want to fast draw against a threat feel free do to so.  I won't try to dissuade you of it.   

It doesn't matter if you believe you have all the facts on your side, you've appealed to authority, or what ever other logic you chose to employ.  I and others, evaluating our personal situations, have come to a different conclusion.   As an old physics teacher I am well aware that experts can debate the same set of data and come to entirely different conclusions.  Majority rule doesn't matter.  Theory proposes, experiment disposes. 

After several trips to the firing range it was obvious that my wife could not handle our Beretta Nano, as small as it was.  Firing it made her hand and arm hurt, and her fear of the weapon grew with each use.  I decided to switch to a weapon that she could handle as well as I, and that we would depend on factory loaded ammo for reliability, not reloads.  Ergo, I sold my Nano and reloading equipment,  and purchased a 10+1 pocket pistol that wife could handle and several  thousand rounds of ammo.  She has no fear of the gun we chose, she can handle it well and shoot it satisfactorily.  Even if she tried she couldn't "fast draw" that mosquito and shoot it accurately.  But, since 95% of all shootings take places within 15 ft, she had demonstrated repeatedly that she can reliably and repeatedly hit the center of mass, reload, and continue shooting without pain, or fear of the weapon.

Even  if you "out draw" the thug you may not be aware that another thug is masquerading as a customer, or standing secretly by the door, or where ever, and acting as cover for the primary thug.   If you fast draw and fire first you have no guarantee that he or any possible partners won't fire back regardless of the caliber you use.  Youtube has many videos of people shot with larger caliber handguns who didn't even know it and walked around for a while before getting tired and setting down.  There are also videos showing people dropping instantly when hit with a light caliber round.  Neither example matters much because they do not and cannot guarantee a particular outcome.  Past performance is no guarantee of future behavior.   Unless you can guarantee that each quick draw shot  will result in a hit in the head, neck or spine of the  perp (or perps),  you face the risk of being shot yourself.   We all do.   If the thug already has his gun drawn and pointed at you from three feet away then your odds of defeating him with a fast draw are even less.

In my opinion, the key to successful usage of a handgun for self defense is surprise and calm, accurate  fire, if shooting is necessary,  not speed of draw or rate of fire.  As an old deputy marshal I once  used armed intervention to capture an escaped murderer and took him to jail in Central City.   When I positioned myself six to eight feet in front of the escapee, so that any potential gun fire would pass out through the front door of the bar,  or out the back wall behind me, I drew my weapon.  My gun, a 9mm Espana,  was steady as a rock as I held it on the escapee.    I still have a perfect image in my mind of people in the bar diving for cover behind the bar or under tables while screaming and shouting when I drew it.  Then everything got extremely quiet.   The escapee stood there with his hand near his coat pocket, the pocket which was being pulled down by a heavy weight and showed a roundness similar to a gun barrel.  The 9mm Espana semi-auto has a hammer (just like my pocket pistol), which I never kept cocked even though a live round was in the chamber.  The escapee turned around and began walking away, while putting his hand into the pocket.  I cocked the hammer back.  The bar was so quiet it sounded like a hammer hitting a bell.  The escapee froze.  After securing his hands behind his head with a grip on his interlocked index fingers I marched him across the street to the cruiser.

 After I had him cuffed and put him into the back of the cruiser I took a deep breath and noticed my heart racing, but while the event was playing out it I wasn't aware of it.  I was calm.  It was like I was watching a movie of the event instead of being a part of it.  I know why.  I am not afraid of dying.   As a Believer I accept the word of Jesus that even the hairs of my head are numbers, and so I have no problem with Job or the writer of Psalms saying that my days are numbered as well.
Job 14:5 "A man’s days are numbered. You know the number of his months. He cannot live longer than the time You have set."   
I've been on this planet for 877 months and I am thankful for each one.  But, I know that as each month passes I have fewer months remaining.  I also know that God is in charge.  I read the Book.  In the end the Man on the white horse wins.  So I don't worry about the collapse of the economy or any putative attack of terrorists, or of food shortages, power shortages, or street thugs with guns.  None of them have the ability to shorten what God has decreed for me, and when my time comes it will come.  Sooner or later. Ecclesiastes 12 says it all.

Even if I am present at the scene of an armed robbery I will make no attempt to stop the perp as long as he/she doesn't begin shooting.   I hold my CHP for my own protection, not to voluntarily defend the property of the store or the people in it.  They have their own opportunity to acquire their own defensive weapons and training.  So, I will not initiate shooting over stolen property. Stores carry insurance for theft.   If, on the other hand, the perp demands patrons march into a back room, or begins shooting them, I will respond.  Even if I am the first one shot there is no guarantee for the perp that his bullet will disable me before I shoot one or more into him.   Will I or my wife survive?  Will you with your fast draw survive?  Neither of us can guarantee that we will, but we both will choose the best moment to suit our needs and circumstances at the time.  My first choice will be not to shoot, even if the perp asks for my wallet.  I never carry money and I can cancel my credit cards before the legal time  limit for reimbursement passes.  No reason to kill anyone over money or credit cards or store property.

JTH:

--- Quote from: GreyGeek on September 18, 2014, 04:46:56 PM ---One caliber, gun size or method of draw does NOT fit all.  If you want to fast draw against a threat feel free do to so.  I won't try to dissuade you of it.   

It doesn't matter if you believe you have all the facts on your side, you've appealed to authority, or what ever other logic you chose to employ.  I and others, evaluating our personal situations, have come to a different conclusion.   As an old physics teacher I am well aware that experts can debate the same set of data and come to entirely different conclusions.  Majority rule doesn't matter.  Theory proposes, experiment disposes. 
--- End quote ---

Hm.  I think the logic and facts used to make a decision do matter, actually.  People can of course make their own decisions.  However, this doesn't change the fact that some choices are better than others.  Decisions based on realistic assumptions regarding self-defense, with respect to a person's own situation, will give best results.

Ending with "experiment disposes" rather supports the idea of actually using real data based on aggregate situations for decision-making purposes.  I note also that saying that "experts can debate the same set of data and come to entirely different conclusions" is similar to saying "we should ignore all data because people can't agree on conclusions" both of which statements are demonstrably untrue.

In other words, if you are making your choices based on a dataset, research study, or information that I don't currently have, I'd like to see/read it.  More information makes me more informed, which makes the likelihood of making good choices better.

Assuming I know everything and that my personal choices don't need to be based on anything but personal preference is a good way to choose badly.

I note:  "f you want to fast draw against a threat feel free do to so.  I won't try to dissuade you of it. " 

Glad to hear it.  If there is a threat to my life, I'm certainly not going to move slowly.  If I need to save my life, or the life of someone I love, I'm pretty sure that moving slowly isn't going to be optimal.  Conversely, I AM pretty sure that the sooner I'm ready to shoot, the sooner I can make a difference. 

(Cue the comments about making a stealthy draw when the bad guy isn't looking, and how a fast draw would be noticeable.  Yeah, just because a person practices for an effective draw doesn't mean that's the only thing they know.)

Given a decision-making process in an incipient self-defense situation, I know approximately what my draw is going to be--and from that, I have an idea of how much room/space I need to complete that draw.  Which informs me in terms of whether drawing is a good idea, moving is a good idea, or some combination of both.

If I don't know my draw speed, I can't make intelligent decisions about that. 


--- Quote ---After several trips to the firing range it was obvious that my wife could not handle our Beretta Nano, as small as it was.  Firing it made her hand and arm hurt, and her fear of the weapon grew with each use.  I decided to switch to a weapon that she could handle as well as I, and that we would depend on factory loaded ammo for reliability, not reloads.  Ergo, I sold my Nano and reloading equipment,  and purchased a 10+1 pocket pistol that wife could handle and several  thousand rounds of ammo.  She has no fear of the gun we chose, she can handle it well and shoot it satisfactorily.  Even if she tried she couldn't "fast draw" that mosquito and shoot it accurately.  But, since 95% of all shootings take places within 15 ft, she had demonstrated repeatedly that she can reliably and repeatedly hit the center of mass, reload, and continue shooting without pain, or fear of the weapon.
--- End quote ---

I'm thinking that your idea of "fast draw" and mine is different.  We aren't shooting from the hip, here, nor are we waving the gun wildly and blasting off rounds as fast as we can.  We are, however, getting that first shot into the attacker as quickly as we can accurately do it.

As such, I'm not sure why your wife couldn't have a perfectly decent draw and accurate first shot.  (Other than she is drawing from your pocket...?  That would obviously make a difference in speed.)

Might I ask where your contention of "95% of all shootings take places within 15 ft" comes from?  Is that LEO-based?  Citizen self-defense based?  What are the circumstances? 

Anyway---main point is that I'm not sure how this has anything to do with wanting to be able to get the firearm in action as fast as possible once you've made your decision to use it.


--- Quote ---Even  if you "out draw" the thug you may not be aware that another thug is masquerading as a customer, or standing secretly by the door, or where ever, and acting as cover for the primary thug.   If you fast draw and fire first you have no guarantee that he or any possible partners won't fire back regardless of the caliber you use.  Youtube has many videos of people shot with larger caliber handguns who didn't even know it and walked around for a while before getting tired and setting down.  There are also videos showing people dropping instantly when hit with a light caliber round.
--- End quote ---

None of that makes any difference to whether or not you draw quickly, or slowly.  Other than drawing slowly means that said person/people/groups etc will have more time in their attack before your response makes any difference.


--- Quote ---  Neither example matters much because they do not and cannot guarantee a particular outcome.  Past performance is no guarantee of future behavior.
--- End quote ---

Don't recall asking for a guarantee.  Matter of fact, just like the previous section, that is irrelevant to the topic at hand.


--- Quote ---  Unless you can guarantee that each quick draw shot  will result in a hit in the head, neck or spine of the  perp (or perps),  you face the risk of being shot yourself.   We all do.   If the thug already has his gun drawn and pointed at you from three feet away then your odds of defeating him with a fast draw are even less.
--- End quote ---

Obviously.  Same is true no matter what you do.  It is certainly true that if you draw SLOWLY, you have even less of a chance.  Again you use the word guarantee, and again the situation mentioned is irrelevant to the topic at hand, other than again, a slow draw will only make your chances worse.


--- Quote ---In my opinion, the key to successful usage of a handgun for self defense is surprise and calm, accurate  fire, if shooting is necessary,  not speed of draw or rate of fire.
--- End quote ---

And yet, assuming surprise on your side is unlikely.  Possible, but not something that should be relied upon.  Unless, of course, you are meaning "surprise" as in "they are already threatening my life, and I surprise them by bringing up a gun" in which case being able to do so quickly gives you a much better chance.

Accurate fire is obviously important.  Don't believe anyone has argued about rate of fire (though personally, I think that if I can put four shots accurately in a six inch circle at 5 yards in two seconds from a surprise start with the first shot hitting at 1.3 seconds and do this consistently, then I'm probably in better shape than someone who takes 2 seconds for their first shot and completes four shots in 3.5 seconds, because the other guy is working on killing you during this time and lots can happen in those extra seconds).

Main point for this part:  I'm not sure how you can assume surprise being on your side.  And I still don't see how taking longer to get the gun out won't be detrimental to your survival chances.


--- Quote ---As an old deputy marshal I once  used armed intervention to capture an escaped murderer and took him to jail in Central City.   When I positioned myself six to eight feet in front of the escapee, so that any potential gun fire would pass out through the front door of the bar,  or out the back wall behind me, I drew my weapon.  My gun, a 9mm Espana,  was steady as a rock as I held it on the escapee.    I still have a perfect image in my mind of people in the bar diving for cover behind the bar or under tables while screaming and shouting when I drew it.  Then everything got extremely quiet.   The escapee stood there with his hand near his coat pocket, the pocket which was being pulled down by a heavy weight and showed a roundness similar to a gun barrel.  The 9mm Espana semi-auto has a hammer (just like my pocket pistol), which I never kept cocked even though a live round was in the chamber.  The escapee turned around and began walking away, while putting his hand into the pocket.  I cocked the hammer back.  The bar was so quiet it sounded like a hammer hitting a bell.  The escapee froze.  After securing his hands behind his head with a grip on his interlocked index fingers I marched him across the street to the cruiser.

 After I had him cuffed and put him into the back of the cruiser I took a deep breath and noticed my heart racing, but while the event was playing out it I wasn't aware of it.  I was calm.  It was like I was watching a movie of the event instead of being a part of it.
--- End quote ---

Not really sure how this is relevant to the topic at hand.


--- Quote --- I know why.  I am not afraid of dying.   As a Believer I accept the word of Jesus that even the hairs of my head are numbers, and so I have no problem with Job or the writer of Psalms saying that my days are numbered as well.
Job 14:5 "A man’s days are numbered. You know the number of his months. He cannot live longer than the time You have set."   
I've been on this planet for 877 months and I am thankful for each one.  But, I know that as each month passes I have fewer months remaining.  I also know that God is in charge.  I read the Book.  In the end the Man on the white horse wins.  So I don't worry about the collapse of the economy or any putative attack of terrorists, or of food shortages, power shortages, or street thugs with guns.  None of them have the ability to shorten what God has decreed for me, and when my time comes it will come.  Sooner or later. Ecclesiastes 12 says it all.
--- End quote ---

Same thing: personal for you, but irrelevant to this topic.


--- Quote ---Even if I am present at the scene of an armed robbery I will make no attempt to stop the perp as long as he/she doesn't begin shooting.   I hold my CHP for my own protection, not to voluntarily defend the property of the store or the people in it.  They have their own opportunity to acquire their own defensive weapons and training.  So, I will not initiate shooting over stolen property. Stores carry insurance for theft.
--- End quote ---

Ok.


--- Quote ---   If, on the other hand, the perp demands patrons march into a back room, or begins shooting them, I will respond.  Even if I am the first one shot there is no guarantee for the perp that his bullet will disable me before I shoot one or more into him.   Will I or my wife survive?  Will you with your fast draw survive?  Neither of us can guarantee that we will, but we both will choose the best moment to suit our needs and circumstances at the time.  My first choice will be not to shoot, even if the perp asks for my wallet.  I never carry money and I can cancel my credit cards before the legal time  limit for reimbursement passes.  No reason to kill anyone over money or credit cards or store property.
--- End quote ---

This again doesn't address the topic.  You say that you will respond in certain circumstances---but then ask if my "fast draw" (which again, I think you don't seem to understand) will guarantee my safety.

Of course not.  On the other hand, if I start to move my hand to draw the gun, and the bad guy notices it and starts to react to me, I know that drawing quickly will end better for me than drawing slowly.

(Hm.  How are you going to keep your hand in your pocket if the bad guy has you put your hands in the air?)

Main point here:  I don't understand why people think that drawing slowly is a plus.  I don't understand why people think that taking more time to effectively respond to a lethal-level threat is somehow better.  Or even that taking less time is somehow not worth doing.

Again I ask:  Is there any information out there about concealed carry self-defense situations in which draw speed makes no difference, or that shows that much of the time, being able to get your weapon into play quickly isn't necessary?

For folks interested in some thoughts on citizen concealed carry self-defense, I strongly recommend getting a copy of Tom Given's Lessons From The Street.  [sigh]  Pincus makes money on it, but it is still worth getting.

http://armedcitizensnetwork.org/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.pbv.tabs.tpl&product_id=74&category_id=2&vmcchk=1&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=29

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