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Author Topic: 9mm  (Read 4105 times)

Offline AAllen

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Re: 9mm
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2014, 12:25:33 PM »
So here is what I am getting out of this great information, choosing what caliber (9mm to .45) is correct for your self defense weapon is a lot like choosing which gun is correct for you, a Glock or 1911 (or others).  Its what is comfortable and do you shoot better with because shot placement means more than any of the other variables.  Unless you are carrying a rifle then there are things to discuss, like how are you concealing that Barrett .50 in those shorts. :)

Offline GreyGeek

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Re: 9mm
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2014, 12:34:52 PM »
I've heard it described as representing muscle tissue, but I don't believe that representation comes anywhere near the truth.  Not even a live or recently killed Hog is an accurate representation of a human because a Hog's skin is thicker,  it has more fat, and it's muscle is stronger.

Just going through a shirt or jean material a bullet loses 50-75 joules of energy.

Offline SemperFiGuy

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Re: 9mm
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2014, 02:03:51 PM »
Quote
Can anyone tell me exactly what part of a human ballistic gel is supposed to represent?

Now........this insightful question points out that ballistic gel only gives hints about projectile effect on the human body, but doesn't tell anywhere near the whole story.  Which is why the controversy never gets settled if ballistic gel happens to be the analytical medium of choice.

What we need here, folks is:   HumSim Structural Gel

Maybe a combo of ballistic gel, hard bonelike plastic for structural parts, membranous sacs of various composition to simulate body organs, and some internal plastic piping filled with a viscous red liquid.   Plus some internal wiring.

The plan now is to enroll GGeek and unfy as graduate students, get them an NSSF (Not NSF) grant, find them a laboratory, and put them to work on Project HSSG.

Then turn them loose w/a wide variety of SD ammo in a wide variety of calibers.   Plus some staff help to write their reports.

This Thing has got to get resolved!

FWIW

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Offline depserv

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Re: 9mm
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2014, 07:26:33 PM »
Usually there are good reasons for reputations, and those of the 9mm and its bigger brothers are well known.

If I could hit significantly better with a 9 I would carry a 9, but since I can hit as well with a .40 there is no good reason not to have the extra power.

I'd be interested in knowing if any Obama appointees or liberal butt-kissers were involved in any way with this report. The high seers of our official state religion would prefer the lower powered round because it is better suited to women, and their lackeys would find excuses to make their boss's wishes come true. Just an idea.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2014, 10:24:06 AM by depserv »
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Offline GreyGeek

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Re: 9mm
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2014, 09:43:54 PM »
...
If I could hit significantly better with a 9 I would carry a 9, but since I can hit as well with a .40 there is no good reason not to have the extra power
....

Very true.  I found that the 9mm Beretta Nano was an excellent firearm that I could shoot well enough.  So was the .45 Hi Point.  However, my wife could not, so I moved to a caliber and weapon that she could load, charge and shoot, and without the discomfort and pain that she felt firing the 9mm Nano.  If one is constantly squinting and flinching while shooting it is difficult to see the target or even want to shoot the weapon.  With the pocket pistol we now use she has no problem loading, charging or accurately firing the weapon at ranges over which 95% of all defenses occur.

Offline Kendahl

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Re: 9mm
« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2014, 10:19:26 PM »
The FBI penetration standard came out of the 1986 Miami shootout during which they lost two agents killed and five wounded. The agents scored good hits on the bad guys but their bullets failed to penetrate deeply enough to reach vital organs.

The link only mentions 9 mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP. Until the study is published, we won't know if other calibers were considered. The FBI's conclusions match those of Ohio police officer and instructor Greg Ellifritz. He published his analysis of 1,800 shootings over a period of ten years on his blog under the title An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power and as a somewhat simplified article in American Handgunner exactly a year ago. Ellifritz's data include shotguns (mostly 12 gauge) and centerfire rifles. It should be no surprise that they were far more effective than any handgun. The only thing that bothers me about Ellifritz's study is that, although he mentions statistical significance, he never quantifies it. Therefore, we can only guess how big a difference must be before we can attribute it to performance of the cartridge rather than random chance. Ellifritz says that failure rates between 13% and 17% for calibers from .38 special to .45 ACP imply that they are similar in performance. It may be significant that the failure rate for .357 magnum (including .357 Sig) is only 9%.

It's simple physics that shooting a given bullet faster or a bigger, heavier bullet at the same speed will be more effective. However, physics can't determine whether small and fast is better or worse than big and slow.

Compared to more powerful cartridges, 9 mm has three advantages. They are controllability, magazine capacity and cost. Better controllability results in more hits in less time and fewer misses to endanger bystanders. Lower cost means that more practice rounds can be fired for the same expenditure. The benefits of greater magazine capacity should be self evident.

.327 magnum may be an exception to the rule "Nothing smaller than a .38" since it falls between the .38 special and .357 magnum in power. In a revolver like the Ruger SP101, it gives you six shots instead of five.

Offline SeanN

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Re: 9mm
« Reply #26 on: October 02, 2014, 08:30:48 AM »
Just wanted to add that they consider 12" (not 14-16") as the "gold standard" is for several reasons:

1. Because the FBI established it as their baseline minimum penetration for maximum effectiveness. (And thus, a lot of people mimicked that requirement but it is a smart one)
2. As previously stated there are tons of variations in the amount and types of tissue you may hit depending both on shot placement and on the size/build of the bad guy.
3. Clothing varies and can actually make a substantial difference in wounding potential of a round (heavy winter jacket, multiple layers of denim, etc. vs "naked")
4. It's quite possible to have the bad guy have an arm in the way of the shot. Having the ability to penetrate through an additional few inches of tissue, muscle, and possibly even bone may be required.
5. For some, the ability to shoot through intermediate barriers is a major concern. For civilians, probably less so than for law enforcement but it may be a good decision (depending on the scenario).

Basically, you need to ensure you can hit the vital points and stop the threat. Requiring at least 12" of penetration in ballistic gel gives you a good baseline for effective terminal performance in a wide variety of situations.

Offline JTH

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Re: 9mm
« Reply #27 on: October 02, 2014, 09:49:31 AM »
Basically, you need to ensure you can hit the vital points and stop the threat. Requiring at least 12" of penetration in ballistic gel gives you a good baseline for effective terminal performance in a wide variety of situations.

Yep.  The FBI, in their discussion of use of gel (if I recall correctly), even talked about how gel itself is not supposed to be any sort of official simulation of a human part.  Instead, it is merely an objective way to measure a given minimum amount of performance.  12" of gel penetration does not equate to 12" of human body penetration, nor is it supposed to do so.

Lots of people act like it is supposed to be a simulation, but it isn't.  :)

And they aren't saying that 12" of penetration means one-hit stops.  Or even that more than 12" of penetration means better performance.  (Up to a point, yes, but 18" isn't necessarily better than 14".)



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Offline JTH

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Re: 9mm
« Reply #28 on: October 02, 2014, 10:46:19 AM »
...Greg Ellifritz. He published his analysis of 1,800 shootings over a period of ten years on his blog under the title An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power and as a somewhat simplified article in American Handgunner exactly a year ago. Ellifritz's data include shotguns (mostly 12 gauge) and centerfire rifles. It should be no surprise that they were far more effective than any handgun. The only thing that bothers me about Ellifritz's study is that, although he mentions statistical significance, he never quantifies it. Therefore, we can only guess how big a difference must be before we can attribute it to performance of the cartridge rather than random chance. Ellifritz says that failure rates between 13% and 17% for calibers from .38 special to .45 ACP imply that they are similar in performance. It may be significant that the failure rate for .357 magnum (including .357 Sig) is only 9%.

Here's one link to E's article:

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866

An interesting read.

Quote
It's simple physics that shooting a given bullet faster or a bigger, heavier bullet at the same speed will be more effective. However, physics can't determine whether small and fast is better or worse than big and slow.

I'm not sure I would agree with "more effective".  I'd certainly go with "possibly more effective" but that isn't the same thing.  (And given certain limits, I don't think it is right, though that is a personal opinion.)

For example, shooting a 50BMG at 3500ft/sec or 3800 ft/sec would make little difference in terms of wound ballistics at 200 yards, even though that 300ft/sec difference is quite a lot.  :)

In a similar fashion, shooting a 9mm 124gr bullet at 1050 ft/sec versus 1120 ft/sec might make a difference in effectiveness, but we don't actually know that.  (And while I agree it does makes a difference in terms of kinetic energy and momentum, I don't actually think that difference makes an effective difference in 9mm performance in terms of stopping an attacker.)

Pistol performance for physiological stops, according to the research I've read, generally seems to sum up to:

-given certain minimum performance characteristics (12" FBI standard, for example), physiological stops only occur quickly with shot placement on CNS, and physiological stops do not occur quickly with any caliber/round type with shots not on CNS, barring LOTS and LOTS of hits

-physiological stops may occur due to the sum of all damage, but unless damage is in CNS, sufficient damage to create a physiological stop requires multiple hits and lots more time than we want to wait

-psychological stops will occur with any round effectively equally, and shot placement itself does not seem to have a major effect.

Pistol rounds simply are so bad at damage (compared to long guns, for example) that minor differences between round velocities create an effectiveness difference of basically zero, as long as certain basic minimums are met, with regard to physiological stops.

(Occurs to me to add:  "Physiological stop" means that the attacker is physically incapable of responding, no matter their mindset or willpower.  "Psychological stop" is when the attacker chooses to stop their attack.  Studies show that by far, psychological stops occur much more often than physiological stops, which is why plenty of people have defended themselves effectively with .25s and .22s.  Or by taking a shot that missed, and yet that was sufficient to stop the attacker anyway.)

Quote
Compared to more powerful cartridges, 9 mm has three advantages. They are controllability, magazine capacity and cost. Better controllability results in more hits in less time and fewer misses to endanger bystanders. Lower cost means that more practice rounds can be fired for the same expenditure. The benefits of greater magazine capacity should be self evident.

.327 magnum may be an exception to the rule "Nothing smaller than a .38" since it falls between the .38 special and .357 magnum in power. In a revolver like the Ruger SP101, it gives you six shots instead of five.

And yet----there doesn't seem to a difference between any pistol caliber, really.

The good thing is that it means (again, given a certain minimal performance level, that 12" FBI is a good generic measure), any pistol will do.  And hey, .22s work for psych stops too.  :)

Most of the time, for single attackers single shots (or less) are sufficient for a stop.  I'm not saying that this is what people SHOULD use as the determining factor for caliber/capacity/round choice, but it does mean that it isn't like I can argue with someone who carries a Beretta Bobcat around as their primary CCW weapon.  Or a 2-shot .38 derringer.

Not what I'd choose, but it isn't me.  :)

(And for people who want to make certain they can manage physiological stops---again, other than meeting that basic minimum, everything else is up to your particular preferences of capacity, caliber, velocity, loudness, etc...)
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Offline David Hineline

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Re: 9mm
« Reply #29 on: October 03, 2014, 11:38:33 PM »
FBI and the police dept. who follow their every move are not going back to 9 MM because it is the best ballistic round. It is due to Political Correctness requiring that tiny men and tiny women get to be police and secret service and military and on and on.  The lower recoil of the 9 MM improves the shootabillity of the new smaller/weaker public servants.
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Offline depserv

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Re: 9mm
« Reply #30 on: October 04, 2014, 11:26:12 AM »
FBI and the police dept. who follow their every move are not going back to 9 MM because it is the best ballistic round. It is due to Political Correctness requiring that tiny men and tiny women get to be police and secret service and military and on and on.  The lower recoil of the 9 MM improves the shootabillity of the new smaller/weaker public servants.


This is what I was suggesting in my post when I made reference to liberal butt-kissers.  It seems like one reason given for the FBI going from the 10mm to the 10mm lite and then the .40 was that agents with smaller hands had trouble with the recoil of the 10.  So, what agents are more likely to have smaller hands?  Hmmmmmm.....  This though is something I was told by someone I considered to be reliable but I do not know it to be a fact.  If it is factual though, it's worth making known, because it's another example of harm being caused by the imposition of liberalism as an official state religion.
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Offline Lmbass14

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Re: 9mm
« Reply #31 on: October 04, 2014, 11:54:25 AM »
^This^

Thanks JT, you just saved me some time today.

Can anyone tell me exactly what part of a human ballistic gel is supposed to represent? Does it simulate a solid organ like the liver? Or a hollow organ like the stomach? Maybe lung tissue? Maybe the bladder (empty or full)? You cant ignore the widely varying organ characteristics that exist inside real human beings and how that effects energy transfer.

Kinetic energy + target tissue characteristics = wounding potential.

- Shawn


Great question.  I was thinking the same thing.

Offline GreyGeek

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Re: 9mm
« Reply #32 on: October 04, 2014, 12:47:40 PM »
So, what agents are more likely to have smaller hands?  Hmmmmmm..... 

You mean the reason why my wife couldn't handle my 9mm Nano but has no problems with a mouse gun?

Offline depserv

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Re: 9mm
« Reply #33 on: October 07, 2014, 08:07:43 AM »
You mean the reason why my wife couldn't handle my 9mm Nano but has no problems with a mouse gun?

(looking over my shoulders both ways to be sure there are no liberal thought police in the area)  Yeah, something like that... 
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Offline GreyGeek

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Re: 9mm
« Reply #34 on: October 07, 2014, 02:05:31 PM »
(looking over my shoulders both ways to be sure there are no liberal thought police in the area)  Yeah, something like that... 

That's what I thought.    That guy who ran into the White House and was tackled just outside the Oval Office blew through the guard at the door.   Guess what...

I'll be politically incorrect but biologically accurate: Women do not make good guards, soldiers or policemen  because those positions often require more physical strength and endurance than the average women possesses.   However, it take no muscle to push a button or pull a trigger.   Female fighter and helicopter pilots can pull higher Gs than male pilots and at random times of the month can be extremely aggressive.  They are also willing:


If they are captured, they have more to loose, so I suspect that in combat they'd fight as hard as they could, if all they do is pull triggers.  But while carrying 70 lbs of weapons, ammo and gear?  They do not have the Testosterone levels that males do, so they do not have the muscle mass nor endurance that can and often is required in a platoon patrol, the occasional exception not withstanding.   

We're talking bell curves here.  Strong women often overlap weak men, but the strength of the average women is well below the strength of the average man.


Offline depserv

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Re: 9mm
« Reply #35 on: October 07, 2014, 02:34:04 PM »
That's what I thought.    That guy who ran into the White House and was tackled just outside the Oval Office blew through the guard at the door.   Guess what...

I'll be politically incorrect but biologically accurate: Women do not make good guards, soldiers or policemen because those positions often require more physical strength and endurance than the average women possesses.   However, it take no muscle to push a button or pull a trigger.   Female fighter and helicopter pilots can pull higher Gs than male pilots and at random times of the month can be extremely aggressive.  They are also willing:


If they are captured, they have more to loose, so I suspect that in combat they'd fight as hard as they could, if all they do is pull triggers.  But while carrying 70 lbs of weapons, ammo and gear?  They do not have the Testosterone levels that males do, so they do not have the muscle mass nor endurance that can and often is required in a platoon patrol, the occasional exception not withstanding.   

We're talking bell curves here.  Strong women often overlap weak men, but the strength of the average women is well below the strength of the average man.



WARNING!!!!  You have expressed thought that has been forbidden by the high seers of Liberalism, America's official state religion.  As penance for this act of thoughtcrime you are commanded to give $100 to the Communist Party (or its proxy the DNC), and say 10 Hail Darwins.

I remember reading somewhere awhile back that the Islamists believe that if they are killed by a woman they can't get into the promised land and enjoy their 72 virgins or something.  If that is the case, I would have as many killed by women as possible, and I would make it as widely known as possible. 
« Last Edit: October 07, 2014, 02:36:12 PM by depserv »
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Offline SeanN

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Re: 9mm
« Reply #36 on: October 07, 2014, 02:34:23 PM »
Well, yeah, sure, all that gender stuff....

Or, y'know, differences in wounding potential being extremely small between 9mm, .40S&W, .45ACP, and 10mm to the point that with modern ammunition there difference isn't enough that one would get the job done and the other wouldn't.

The only advantage to the larger rounds is barrier penetration.

Offline GreyGeek

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Re: 9mm
« Reply #37 on: October 07, 2014, 05:16:06 PM »
f they are killed by a woman they can't get into the promised land and enjoy their 72 virgins or something.

I've heard that too.   I also heard that if they die "unclean" they cannot enjoy those promises.  Being "unclean" means having contact with unclean animals, etc...   Dip the bullets in pig fat, load the mortars half full with pig fat.  Smear paths, doors, floors with pig fat and blood.  Advertise it.

The 19 Saudis that hijacked the airliners on 9/11 took ritual baths and shaved off all their body hair the night before they committed their crimes.  Make touching a pig carcass at the entrances to air terminals a mandatory act.  Those that don't can't fly.

Offline AWick

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Re: 9mm
« Reply #38 on: October 07, 2014, 07:02:12 PM »
never saw a scientific analysis of 9 v 40 v 45 v 357Sig turn into an anti-islam topic before... regardless of anyone's opinion, that is a pretty far departure...
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Offline SeanN

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Re: 9mm
« Reply #39 on: October 08, 2014, 08:26:49 AM »
never saw a scientific analysis of 9 v 40 v 45 v 357Sig turn into an anti-islam topic before... regardless of anyone's opinion, that is a pretty far departure...

Yeah. We went from discussing the known performance measurements of various calibers to blaming women for being "weaker" to blaming liberalism to discussing how to stop Muslims from entering heaven. All in 2 pages of the same thread. Pretty impressive.