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9mm
AWick:
Why is penetration depth the "go to" standard for lethality? If each of these rounds are designed to hit that approx 14-16" depth then the next thing to analyze is the energy dissipated and subsequent wound channel. That picture shows some nasty amplitude in both of the 40S&Ws, the 45 ACP, and of course that 357Sig! It is simply physics.
In slow motion, the ballistic gels distribute the energy in waves. In the classical wave theory, energy of a wave doesn't depend on the frequency and wavelength of the wave (i.e. the penetration depth and other factors), only the total area under the amplitude curve (if the wavelength is the same, then it comes down to amplitude. A wave's energy is directly proportional to its amplitude squared. This is where the amplitude of those larger calibers, and the 357Sig come into play.
OnTheFly:
--- Quote from: AWick on September 30, 2014, 09:34:16 PM ---Why is penetration depth the "go to" standard for lethality? If each of these rounds are designed to hit that approx 14-16" depth then the next thing to analyze is the energy dissipated and subsequent wound channel. That picture shows some nasty amplitude in both of the 40S&Ws, the 45 ACP, and of course that 357Sig! It is simply physics.
In slow motion, the ballistic gels distribute the energy in waves. In the classical wave theory, energy of a wave doesn't depend on the frequency and wavelength of the wave (i.e. the penetration depth and other factors), only the total area under the amplitude curve (if the wavelength is the same, then it comes down to amplitude. A wave's energy is directly proportional to its amplitude squared. This is where the amplitude of those larger calibers, and the 357Sig come into play.
--- End quote ---
I am too tired (and possibly not bright enough) to understand everything you just wrote. However, I think I get the gist of what you are saying. My only comment would be that, to take it to an extreme as extremes tend to emphasize what is really happening, if the bullet never penetrated or barely penetrated, how much do the waves matter? The more the bullet penetrates without passing straight through, the more that energy is dissipated into the gel/body.
Or did I completely not understand?
Fly
AWick:
--- Quote from: OnTheFly on September 30, 2014, 10:23:57 PM ---I am too tired (and possibly not bright enough) to understand everything you just wrote. However, I think I get the gist of what you are saying. My only comment would be that, to take it to an extreme as extremes tend to emphasize what is really happening, if the bullet never penetrated or barely penetrated, how much do the waves matter? The more the bullet penetrates without passing straight through, the more that energy is dissipated into the gel/body.
Or did I completely not understand?
Fly
--- End quote ---
I think you're following as best as can be expected with my out of the blue physics ramblings! :)
The amplitude of the red areas in the picture above represent the affected tissue as it expanded, tore apart, and collapsed back together, creating a neat and measurable amplitude curve. This is where they probably came up with the product name for Hydra-Shok, given that our bodies are 70%ish water.
While it is certainly true that kinetic energy E=(mass*velocity^2)/2, giving faster rounds a squared factor more than bullet weight, it is also true the extra powder makes up for this and we all have seen the ballistics charts. 22lr is around 100 ft-lbs, 380 auto is around 200 ft-lbs, 9mm is around 385 ft-lbs, 40S&W is around 485, 45 ACP is around 411 ft-lbs, and 357Sig is around 600 ft-lbs.
What this all means is that if each of those calibers is taking 16" to stop then the energy actually delivered to the target is still 3X as much for a 357Sig than a 380 auto. That energy dissipation directly relates to the amount of tissue that experiences extreme trama and the severity of said trama...
Of course, any vital organ or nervous system hit is going to have similar results nearly regardless of what caliber is in play.
Maybe I'll have to buy that 357Sig barrel for my 40S&Ws M&P40c after all!
OnTheFly:
--- Quote from: AWick on September 30, 2014, 10:58:32 PM ---I think you're following as best as can be expected with my out of the blue physics ramblings! :)
The amplitude of the red areas in the picture above represent the affected tissue as it expanded, tore apart, and collapsed back together, creating a neat and measurable amplitude curve. This is where they probably came up with the product name for Hydra-Shok, given that our bodies are 70%ish water.
While it is certainly true that kinetic energy E=(mass*velocity^2)/2, giving faster rounds a squared factor more than bullet weight, it is also true the extra powder makes up for this and we all have seen the ballistics charts. 22lr is around 100 ft-lbs, 380 auto is around 200 ft-lbs, 9mm is around 385 ft-lbs, 40S&W is around 485, 45 ACP is around 411 ft-lbs, and 357Sig is around 600 ft-lbs.
What this all means is that if each of those calibers is taking 16" to stop then the energy actually delivered to the target is still 3X as much for a 357Sig than a 380 auto. That energy dissipation directly relates to the amount of tissue that experiences extreme trama and the severity of said trama...
Of course, any vital organ or nervous system hit is going to have similar results nearly regardless of what caliber is in play.
Maybe I'll have to buy that 357Sig barrel for my 40S&Ws M&P40c after all!
--- End quote ---
I think I understand better now. You were not saying penetration does not matter, just that equivalent penetration for different calibers means a larger wound channel for a larger caliber.
Fly
shooter:
--- Quote from: AWick on September 30, 2014, 10:58:32 PM ---I think you're following as best as can be expected with my out of the blue physics ramblings! :)
The amplitude of the red areas in the picture above represent the affected tissue as it expanded, tore apart, and collapsed back together, creating a neat and measurable amplitude curve. This is where they probably came up with the product name for Hydra-Shok, given that our bodies are 70%ish water.
While it is certainly true that kinetic energy E=(mass*velocity^2)/2, giving faster rounds a squared factor more than bullet weight, it is also true the extra powder makes up for this and we all have seen the ballistics charts. 22lr is around 100 ft-lbs, 380 auto is around 200 ft-lbs, 9mm is around 385 ft-lbs, 40S&W is around 485, 45 ACP is around 411 ft-lbs, and 357Sig is around 600 ft-lbs.
What this all means is that if each of those calibers is taking 16" to stop then the energy actually delivered to the target is still 3X as much for a 357Sig than a 380 auto. That energy dissipation directly relates to the amount of tissue that experiences extreme trama and the severity of said trama...
Of course, any vital organ or nervous system hit is going to have similar results nearly regardless of what caliber is in play.
Maybe I'll have to buy that 357Sig barrel for my 40S&Ws M&P40c after all!
--- End quote ---
your making my head hurt, just say bigger bullets=bigger hole
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