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Author Topic: What is the value of training?  (Read 2895 times)

Offline JTH

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What is the value of training?
« on: November 10, 2014, 06:26:31 PM »
Claude Werner recently posted about his blog about the value of training.

Some good stuff there: 
http://tacticalprofessor.wordpress.com/2014/11/09/what-is-the-value-of-training/

His three points are spot-on, and you probably won't realize how much until you get good training (from multiple viewpoints) AND test yourself.

1. You don’t know what you don’t know.
2. Much of what you know is wrong.
3. It’s good to have some of the answers to the test before taking it.


(He also mentions the NRA Defensive Pistol I Marksmanship Qualification Program, which is a pretty cool way to test yourself at a basic level.)

"...The value of training is to make you think and perform outside of the cocoon that most gunowners are in, the same way real life frequently does."


Well worth reading.
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Offline bullit

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Re: What is the value of training?
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2014, 06:55:55 PM »
Good read ....he's almost up there with Pincus (you know I had to dig that one in....).  Seriously, Claude is spot on....IMHO

Offline Lorimor

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Re: What is the value of training?
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2014, 07:23:53 PM »
I listen very closely to what Mr. Werner says. 

Claude Werner on a Ballistic Radio podcast:

http://ballisticradio.com/2014/04/21/podcast-season-2-ballistic-radio-episode-58-april-20th-2014/

"It is better to avoid than to run; better to run than to de-escalate; better to de-escalate than to fight; better to fight than to die. The very essence of self-defense is a thin list of things that might get you out alive when you are already screwed." – Rory Miller

Offline JTH

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Re: What is the value of training?
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2014, 08:19:32 PM »
I listen very closely to what Mr. Werner says. 

Yep.  I don't always agree with him, but I do always listen to what he says, and think about it pretty carefully.
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Offline abbafandr

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Re: What is the value of training?
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2014, 08:22:26 PM »
Interesting read.  I'm gonna to try those 2 drills he mentioned.  As soon as it warms up enough so I can feel my fingers when I shoot.

Offline Mali

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Re: What is the value of training?
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2014, 07:58:38 AM »
Interesting read.  I'm gonna to try those 2 drills he mentioned.  As soon as it warms up enough so I can feel my fingers when I shoot.
So some time next March?
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same. - Ronald Reagan

Offline JTH

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Re: What is the value of training?
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2014, 10:40:53 AM »
Interesting read.  I'm gonna to try those 2 drills he mentioned.  As soon as it warms up enough so I can feel my fingers when I shoot.

His 5^5 drill is a solid one, giving many people a bit of a shock in terms of their capabilities. 

It doesn't sound hard (only 5 yards, 5" circles, five full seconds from low ready) but in addition to basic fundamentals you have to be consistent for 25 rounds in sets of 5, all of which are on a timer.

It is amazing how much stress that adds--even though you have PLENTY of time!  (Remember, this is from the low ready position, not even from the holster.)

Many people find themselves throwing one early on---or instead doing the first three circles perfectly, then feeling increased pressure as they do the fourth and fifth iteration of the drill.

No single shot is difficult at all.  No time interval is tight.  But you can't afford to screw up even a single shot for twenty-five rounds. 

...this is a good test of fundamentals competency for people who already think they are a "really good shooter," though they might not like it much.

(The NRA marksmanship program is fun, too.  Not hard, but again, checks fundamentals over time, as opposed to being a one-time spot test.)

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/5-5/

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Offline abbafandr

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Re: What is the value of training?
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2014, 08:16:02 PM »
So some time next March?

Probably July :laugh:

Offline abbafandr

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Re: What is the value of training?
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2014, 08:18:57 PM »
It doesn't sound hard (only 5 yards, 5" circles, five full seconds from low ready) but in addition to basic fundamentals you have to be consistent for 25 rounds in sets of 5, all of which are on a timer.

It is amazing how much stress that adds--even though you have PLENTY of time!  (Remember, this is from the low ready position, not even from the holster.)

It's amazing how much stress (self induced) the timer adds.  But that is one of the things I like about competition,  trying (poorly :-[) to deal with it.

Offline Lorimor

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Re: What is the value of training?
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2014, 07:00:33 AM »
Another good 'un from the Professor:

http://tacticalprofessor.wordpress.com/2014/08/19/ego-defenses/

The thing is, the guy really does look like a professor.  :)
"It is better to avoid than to run; better to run than to de-escalate; better to de-escalate than to fight; better to fight than to die. The very essence of self-defense is a thin list of things that might get you out alive when you are already screwed." – Rory Miller

Offline JTH

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Re: What is the value of training?
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2014, 06:58:26 PM »
In keeping with the topic, Claude posted (earlier today) this excerpt from Cooper's Commentaries, by Jeff Cooper:

Jeff Cooper's Commentaries Vol. 6, No. 8 July 1998

This matter of terminology continues to perplex. In activities requiring dexterity, endurance, strategy, and skill it has become commonplace to refer to an expert as a "master." If one looks at the record, it becomes clear that a master is a teacher. He should be very good at what he does, but mainly he should be good at teaching what he knows. Consider, for example, the "headmaster" of a school. Thus a practitioner of weaponcraft should properly not be considered a master unless he regularly teaches his craft to others. In England in the Middle Ages masters of weaponry were licensed by the crown, and one of the interesting provisions was that once a master had attained that designation he was forbidden thereafter to compete in his activity. Today almost anyone who has ever done well in a contest or been to school sees no shame in opening his own school, thus placing himself in the category of master, whether he knows it or not. The country today is awash in two-bit schools of pistolcraft. They will take your money and hand you a ticket, but whether you are any better with your weapon after graduation will depend entirely upon the competence of the master. (Today I know of two proven and verifiable "shooting masters" - John Gannaway and Louis Awerbuck.)

What does it take to be a master of weaponcraft?

First, it requires demonstrated expertise with the chosen weapon. A master need not be a world champion in competition, but he does need to be a dangerous competitor. He must be able to do everything that the weapon is capable of doing, and doing it on demand. He must be able to show his students exactly what is expected of them, while not, at the same time, intimidating them.

Second, the master must understand the theory of the technique of his instrument. He must know the geometry and physiology behind the shooting process. Generations of military and police instructors have got by without this by simply emphasizing "This is the way we do it!" While that may be good enough for government work, it is not the best way to success. I remember from long years ago an encounter with a great master of the saber. We youngsters depended almost entirely upon speed, but this gentleman showed us that speed was unimportant without timing. To demonstrate he would choose a pupil and than say exactly how and where he would hit him - and then do it. When your master can do that to you, you tend to believe what he says.

Third, the master must have a genuine desire to impart. Here is where the master differs from the mere expert. He must desire excellence in his students more than excellence in himself, and seek at all times to produce that. We have all known some very good shots who have failed as teachers because of a lack of this essential desire.

Fourth, the master demonstrates "command presence," which is a combination of articulation, vocal tone, posture, and attitude. The master must be able to command without rank. Obviously, true masters of weaponcraft are not common. During the time I ran the school at Gunsite, I sought continually for people who displayed the necessary qualifications, but I did not find a lot of people who made the grade. That is doubtless one reason why really good marksmanship is so rare. Very few practitioners are truly qualified to teach it.



If you don't already have copies of Cooper's Commentaries, you SHOULD.  Back when he was still writing them, I faithfully copied each one (electronically) in addition to printing them all out and putting them in binders.  (Still have those binders, too.)

Here is a page with the PDF versions:  http://myweb.cebridge.net/mkeithr/Jeff/

Everyone should have a copy of these---not because what he says was always right, or even because what he says is relevant to your interests--because what he says makes you THINK.  And that's important.

I don't hunt much.  (I'll take a deer once in awhile because I like deer meat.  Don't have anything against hunting, just don't care personally about doing it.)  And yet, I'll read his comments about hunting, big game, and hunting rifles. 

I'm not a proponent of the Weaver stance---I think it has been clearly shown that other stances and grips are both more intuitive under stress, AND faster and more effective for accuracy at speed.  And yet, I'll read what he says about stances and grip.

Some of what he says is simply outmoded.  Some is not.  And yet---it all makes for good reading.

Well worth having a copy, and perusing it periodically.
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Offline abbafandr

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Re: What is the value of training?
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2014, 02:34:40 PM »
Finally made it to the range to try the first drill.  Weekday morning with temperature of 36 made for an empty range. 
Used  9 inch target instead, since had no 12 inch one with me.  Cleared that low hurdle and found out my new powder works fine  8)