< Back to the Main Site

Author Topic: Instructor Bob is the Bestest Instructor EVAR!!1!  (Read 8617 times)

Offline JTH

  • NFOA Full Member
  • **
  • Join Date: Jan 2009
  • Posts: 2300
  • Shooter
    • Precision Response Training
Instructor Bob is the Bestest Instructor EVAR!!1!
« on: February 12, 2015, 03:54:54 PM »
Phrases like that get old really quickly.

Recently on a number of different Facebook groups, I've seen some people enthusiastically telling people to take handgun/tactical training classes from "Instructor Bob."  (Instructor Bob is not his real name, nor is that in any way the name of his training company.)  Instructor Bob is a real person with a real training company, though.

Instructor Bob's classes are known to be highly unsafe.  So much so, that he actually used pictures demonstrating incredibly unsafe gun handling as part of his advertising on his website and Facebook page--and didn't see any problem with them.  Yet this has not stopped people from suggesting his classes to others.

This drives me nuts.  So of course I wrote about it.

https://precisionresponse.wordpress.com/2015/02/11/instructor-bob-teaches-a-great-class/

I expect to see overblown, non-factual (and mostly stupid) claims made in advertising copy, particularly from groups that have bought into the MagPul-method of advertising.  (Example:  "...some of the bravest and brightest individuals across the national training community..."  I mean, seriously??) After all, if your target demographic has no idea of what competency actually looks like or what factors are actually important in terms of the topic of the class, as long as it looks cool it'll work.

But I don't want to hear it from a bunch of people who have no idea what they are talking about, with regard to someone who is teaching absolute crap.  There are an amazing number of people out there who have taken exactly one class in their life, and from that, have decided that their instructor was absolutely amazing.  Seriously, I just saw "He's the best instructor in the area!" from someone who also mentioned in a different post that this was the first handgun class he'd ever taken.

Sure, we always want to get opinions and information from people who have been in the classes that we are interested in---BUT we should be paying attention to people who have enough knowledge and experience such that their opinion actually means something.

If 20 people (with no experience) say a class was great, but the two people who HAVE experience in that topic say that it was at best a very basic class, and the instructors weren't that solid on their technique---you should ignore those 20 people.  They have no idea what they are talking about, and are simply telling you that they thought the class was fun, and they liked the instructor, and he was convincing.

They literally CAN'T tell you if the content was any good.

Make sure you pay attention to the ratings and commentary from the people who CAN tell you if the content was any good.

Example:  Zeeb runs a GREAT class in Legal Aspects of Lethal Force.  A number of us who actually spend time thinking about and teaching legal aspects of use of force for firearms have taken the class, and uniformly think it is very well-done, and that people should go to it.  That is a set of ratings and comments you should pay attention to--particularly since we aren't making any money off of it.  :)

Look around for after-action reports (AARs) from knowledgeable people with experience in that content area.  Those will guide you to far better classes than some guy on Facebook who says "Instructor Bob is fantastic---he was a cop and in the military for 25 years so he shoots really well, I learned SO MUCH!"
Precision Response Training
http://precisionresponsetraining.com

Offline Mudinyeri

  • God, save us!
  • NFOA Full Member
  • **
  • Join Date: May 2010
  • Location: Omaha
  • Posts: 3965
  • Run for the Hills
Re: Instructor Bob is the Bestest Instructor EVAR!!1!
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2015, 05:01:34 PM »
Those pictures didn't include shooting at water did they?

Offline SemperFiGuy

  • Steel Benefactor
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2009
  • Location: Omaha, NE
  • Posts: 2079
  • GG Grampaw Wuz a DamYankee Cavalryman
Re: Instructor Bob is the Bestest Instructor EVAR!!1!
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2015, 06:00:05 PM »
Instructor Bob..........

>Probably came in and said something like, "Ah bin teechin' this here course for twenta-fahv yeers.....

>And Ah've seen ever dumb thang that any dang fool could do on a shootin' range.....

>Including sum ah the dumb thangs you'uns are gonna do durin' this here coarse."

At which point a shiver ripples through the group because they are being berated by an Expert Who Has Seen it All and Knows it All.   And therefore knows all the answers.   Ooh...We got the good one.

Sorta like a Stockholm Syndrome for the now-captive audience.
---------------------------------------------------
I was actually paired up as a co-team leader with a fellow like Instructor Bob during a trial Personal Protection Inside the Home Course.   It was being was presented for consideration to the head of the local office of a national safety agency, several notable local and county LEO department heads, and a Nebraska State Patrol officer who was then leading the NE CHP program.

Whereupon I immediately decided that Instructor Bob was the expert to run the whole show all by himself while I tried to fade into the woodwork.   He did love the limelight.   I wound up in the back of the room.   Quite frankly,  hiding.  There was just no way to save this program.   And--of course--the trial program was a total failure.

Not to mention that the Great Expert wouldn't check out the AV equipment beforehand, and--of course--it didn't work and the program was 20 minutes late getting started.   Thereby wasting everyone's time and setting a bad tone from the beginning.

Yes.

I've worked with Instructor Bob.   Or an Instructor Bob type.  Once.  But never again.

sfg



Certified Instructor:  NE CHP & NRA-Rifle, Pistol, Shotgun, Personal Protection Inside/Outside Home, Home Firearm Safety, RTBAV, Metallic Cartridge & Shotshell Reloading.  NRA Chief RSO, IDPA Safety Officer, USPSA Range Officer.  NRA RangeTechTeamAdvisor.  NE Hunter Education (F&B).   Glock Armorer

Offline Dan W

  • NFOA Co-Founder
  • *****
  • Join Date: Oct 2007
  • Location: Lincoln NE
  • Posts: 8143
Re: Instructor Bob is the Bestest Instructor EVAR!!1!
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2015, 06:33:53 PM »
Those pictures didn't include shooting at water did they?

:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
Dan W    NFOA Co Founder
Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.   J. F. K.

Offline bullit

  • NFOA Full Member
  • **
  • Join Date: Feb 2009
  • Posts: 2143
Re: Instructor Bob is the Bestest Instructor EVAR!!1!
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2015, 07:36:27 PM »
I stand by my AAR on PRTs CCW Lifestyle Course  :D

And I still think "Instructor Bob's" REAL name is made up too ...... SPORT ...
« Last Edit: February 12, 2015, 07:44:37 PM by bullit »

Offline Greybeard

  • Bronze Benefactor
  • ***
  • Join Date: Mar 2010
  • Location: Papillion, NE
  • Posts: 404
  • Live Free or Die!!
Re: Instructor Bob is the Bestest Instructor EVAR!!1!
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2015, 08:54:33 PM »
Having been an instructor for a few years, I have no use for instructors who fail to prepare themselves, their material, their classrooms and their equipment in advance. Might as well pack their own parachute on the way out of the airplane!!!
WØCHF

Offline OnTheFly

  • Steel Benefactor
  • *
  • Join Date: Mar 2009
  • Location: Lincoln, NE
  • Posts: 2617
  • NFOA member #364
Re: Instructor Bob is the Bestest Instructor EVAR!!1!
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2015, 10:19:01 PM »
No, no. It's okay.  Those guns were not loaded.

Fly
Si vis pacem, para bellum

Offline JTH

  • NFOA Full Member
  • **
  • Join Date: Jan 2009
  • Posts: 2300
  • Shooter
    • Precision Response Training
Re: Instructor Bob is the Bestest Instructor EVAR!!1!
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2015, 06:06:51 AM »
No, no. It's okay.  Those guns were not loaded.

I'm pretty sure that was his actual excuse.  Along with "Well, they weren't really pointing them at each other..."

The thing is, he isn't the only one (though he is certainly the most-unsafe one) who is being lauded for being an outstanding instructor by people who don't actually know the difference between competency and incompetency.

Too bad we can't get a rating scale for the people who recommend instructors.  "Guy A, there, is an idiot.  Ignore what he says.  Guy B, there, now HE has taken a lot of classes from good people, and his comparisons are good stuff."

:)
Precision Response Training
http://precisionresponsetraining.com

Offline GreyGeek

  • NFOA Full Member
  • **
  • Join Date: Dec 2012
  • Posts: 1687
Re: Instructor Bob is the Bestest Instructor EVAR!!1!
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2015, 09:25:15 AM »
Some recent graduates of "Instructor Bob"'s class?

Unfortunately, "Bob" brings to mind the instructor who killed himself trying to teach a nine year old how to shoot a machine gun.

Offline Mudinyeri

  • God, save us!
  • NFOA Full Member
  • **
  • Join Date: May 2010
  • Location: Omaha
  • Posts: 3965
  • Run for the Hills
Re: Instructor Bob is the Bestest Instructor EVAR!!1!
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2015, 10:56:24 AM »
Makes me think we should take some pictures of all the care we take when we host TWAW pistol disassembly and cleaning clinics.

Offline Dan W

  • NFOA Co-Founder
  • *****
  • Join Date: Oct 2007
  • Location: Lincoln NE
  • Posts: 8143
Re: Instructor Bob is the Bestest Instructor EVAR!!1!
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2015, 11:00:04 AM »
Makes me think we should take some pictures of all the care we take when we host TWAW pistol disassembly and cleaning clinics.
Yes , we need to show the world what safe and effective training looks like
Dan W    NFOA Co Founder
Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.   J. F. K.

Offline DenmanShooter

  • NFOA Full Member
  • **
  • Join Date: Mar 2014
  • Location: Denman, Nebraska
  • Posts: 357
  • Fear No Evil
    • SolidRed
Re: Instructor Bob is the Bestest Instructor EVAR!!1!
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2015, 10:34:50 PM »
I seriously hope they have stopped that idiotic practice.  Who in their right mind does that in a class?  Do they even go over the basic safety rules?  Are they insane? 

I hope those students took some more instruction.  I cannot imagine those people out on the street or around family members or friends.

It has been 20 years since I taught a hunter safety class but I can guarantee not one single student of ours would have stood by while that went on.  Not one.

The golf course is a willful and deliberate misuse of a perfectly good rifle range!      Jeff  Cooper

Offline JTH

  • NFOA Full Member
  • **
  • Join Date: Jan 2009
  • Posts: 2300
  • Shooter
    • Precision Response Training
Re: Instructor Bob is the Bestest Instructor EVAR!!1!
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2015, 11:17:09 AM »
I hope those students took some more instruction.  I cannot imagine those people out on the street or around family members or friends.

But they've never been to any other class, so THEY think the class was fantastic.  And they are suggesting it to others as a "really good class with great instructors" that was "taught by someone with real knowledge and experience" who showed them "the right way to defend yourself with a pistol."

Those are in quotes because they ARE quotes from people who are suggesting people take his courses. 

They don't know any better.  And it made them feel good and accomplished, so that makes it a great class, in their eyes.

I really do wish we had a subforum here specifically for AARs in which people could review classes and create AARs, but prior to doing so would have to create a post (to be stickied at the top of the subforum and periodically updated by the reviewer) that states their qualifications for having a valid opinion on the subject matter being taught and the instructional method being used.  That way when I read an AAR, I can first check that person's C.V. to see if I should pay attention to what they are saying.

I mean, I like to hear that people had a great time in a class.  But if I'm looking up a class I'm thinking about taking, I want to hear that the people in the class learned a valid curriculum really well from a knowledgeable instructor who taught it in a way that could be retained--and I want to hear that from someone who can actually rate those topics accurately.

I also want to know if an instructor sucks or is unsafe.  Which an experienced, knowledgeable person would also be able to tell me.
Precision Response Training
http://precisionresponsetraining.com

Offline Lorimor

  • NFOA Full Member
  • **
  • Join Date: Nov 2008
  • Location: Platte County
  • Posts: 1077
  • Relay 2
Re: Instructor Bob is the Bestest Instructor EVAR!!1!
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2015, 09:23:14 PM »

I like Clint Smith 'cause I already knew how to cuss like a Sailor.  Now I know how to cuss like a Marine. 

L-O-G-I-C is also big in his classes.
"It is better to avoid than to run; better to run than to de-escalate; better to de-escalate than to fight; better to fight than to die. The very essence of self-defense is a thin list of things that might get you out alive when you are already screwed." – Rory Miller

Offline ziggy

  • NFOA Full Member
  • **
  • Join Date: Aug 2014
  • Posts: 6
Re: Instructor Bob is the Bestest Instructor EVAR!!1!
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2015, 01:01:08 PM »
Don't think I've ever met you, but it appears to me like you're a weapons instructor and possibly you own the training business.

My first impression when I read your post is it was just counter marketing. One vendor taking a swipe at another vendor to put them down. As I read your post, here's some of the things I was really curious about...

Quote from: jthhapkido
....

Instructor Bob's classes are known to be highly unsafe.  So much so, that he actually used pictures demonstrating incredibly unsafe gun handling as part of his advertising on his website and Facebook page--and didn't see any problem with them. 

...

As a licensed instructor, if you personally know Bob's classes are unsafe and you personally have proof that Bob's classes are unsafe, don't you have an ethical responsibility to work with the State Patrol to get Bob's instructor's license revoked?

Quote from: jthhapkido
...
But I don't want to hear it from a bunch of people who have no idea what they are talking about, with regard to someone who is teaching absolute crap. 
....
If 20 people (with no experience) say a class was great, but the two people who HAVE experience in that topic say that it was at best a very basic class, and the instructors weren't that solid on their technique---you should ignore those 20 people.  They have no idea what they are talking about, and are simply telling you that they thought the class was fun, and they liked the instructor, and he was convincing.

They literally CAN'T tell you if the content was any good.
...

If you weren't in the class and you if don't know any of the people that took the class, I'm more than a little lost how you're able to know anything about those folks experience or inexperience from a web post that say nothing more than "I thought the class was great."

Quote from: jthhapkido
...
Example:  Zeeb runs a GREAT class in Legal Aspects of Lethal Force.  A number of us who actually spend time thinking about and teaching legal aspects of use of force for firearms have taken the class, and uniformly think it is very well-done, and that people should go to it.  That is a set of ratings and comments you should pay attention to--particularly since we aren't making any money off of it. 
...

So you want to script how people post reviews to the web? Honestly, doesn't that seem more than just a little bit controlling.




Offline Mudinyeri

  • God, save us!
  • NFOA Full Member
  • **
  • Join Date: May 2010
  • Location: Omaha
  • Posts: 3965
  • Run for the Hills
Re: Instructor Bob is the Bestest Instructor EVAR!!1!
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2015, 01:58:30 PM »
If you weren't in the class and you if don't know any of the people that took the class, I'm more than a little lost how you're able to know anything about those folks experience or inexperience from a web post that say nothing more than "I thought the class was great."

Thomas (jthapkido) and I frequently disagree - often strenuously - about many things.  However, I can agree with this: If the photos, above, are from one of "Instructor Bob's" classes, they are indeed unsafe.

Offline JTH

  • NFOA Full Member
  • **
  • Join Date: Jan 2009
  • Posts: 2300
  • Shooter
    • Precision Response Training
Re: Instructor Bob is the Bestest Instructor EVAR!!1!
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2015, 03:28:09 PM »
Don't think I've ever met you, but it appears to me like you're a weapons instructor and possibly you own the training business.

My first impression when I read your post is it was just counter marketing. One vendor taking a swipe at another vendor to put them down. As I read your post, here's some of the things I was really curious about...

If you want to take it that way, you certainly can.  I can't stop how you think about things.  On the other hand, someone could read it and clearly see that I never mentioned by name either the instructor OR the training facility.   And the post was about how often people rate/recommend instructors or courses without actually having any basis or comparison for the recommendation, as opposed to talking about all how another particular instructor is all horrible and people should come train with me.

I'd say most people aren't having trouble telling the difference. 

If I wanted to directly disparage that particular group, it would be much easier than writing about ignorant people posting reviews about classes.

Quote
As a licensed instructor, if you personally know Bob's classes are unsafe and you personally have proof that Bob's classes are unsafe, don't you have an ethical responsibility to work with the State Patrol to get Bob's instructor's license revoked?

How do you know I haven't informed the State Patrol?  Along with all the other certified (not licensed, certified) instructors on this forum?  Oh, wait, this was just an attempt to get a dig in at me.

Quote
If you weren't in the class and you if don't know any of the people that took the class, I'm more than a little lost how you're able to know anything about those folks experience or inexperience from a web post that say nothing more than "I thought the class was great."

Hm.  Considering the pictures from the class posted by the instructor on their website and their Facebook, given the extremely unsafe conditions, the poor grips, the poor stances, and having heard excerpts from that particular instructor's attempt to talk ENGC into hosting his classes, I'm thinking that if a particular student thought that the class was very good, very informative, and helped their technique, then there is no way whatsoever that the student was anything than a beginner.

Or perhaps you missed the pictures posted in this thread?

Quote
So you want to script how people post reviews to the web? Honestly, doesn't that seem more than just a little bit controlling.

Hm.  I think---that you didn't read what I wrote.  (Since that was obviously not at all what I said.)

This, however, doesn't surprise me, since a post out of nowhere from someone who has only posted twice on this forum including this one (but has been a member for months, even though that person has only spent a total of 33 minutes online here) taking what I wrote out of context to make veiled attacks on me isn't really something that I take seriously, particularly when they attempt to make my article about something that is separate from the actual topic I was discussing.

(And perhaps you missed the thread awhile back when the pictures of this class first came to light, and the denunciation that occurred from a number of different state-patrol-certified instructors?  Do you think everyone just said a couple of things, then ignored the issue?)

If you happen to think everyone's opinion is equally valid, then that's fine.  I, on the other hand, would really like to make decisions based on the thoughts and opinions of people who actually know what they are talking about.

That doesn't mean that new shooter's opinions aren't also important---if someone is taking an intro class and has a good time and likes the instructor, that's good to know.  It would ALSO be good to know that the instructor is teaching a good curriculum safely, and most new shooters don't have the knowledge base necessary to rate that accurately.

I think it WOULD be nice to have an area where people can post their experience/knowledge base, and also freely post their opinions about training classes, so we could decide what we wanted to read and believe based on subject matter expertise.  This of course does not stop anyone from saying whatever they like. 

If you take that as "controlling," apparently we have different definitions of that word.  That's okay, we don't have to agree.

I am amused that you think this entire thing was an attempt to disparage another training company.  I don't need to do that---they did that to themselves without any outside help.

And since I didn't list any names, and spent much of the article discussing the real topic (in which this instructor's reviews were merely an example), I'm thinking that considering the tone of your article, your point was merely to attempt to make me look bad by making insinuations about me, as opposed to actually having any real issues with my actual topic.





« Last Edit: February 24, 2015, 03:31:27 PM by jthhapkido »
Precision Response Training
http://precisionresponsetraining.com

Offline ziggy

  • NFOA Full Member
  • **
  • Join Date: Aug 2014
  • Posts: 6
Re: Instructor Bob is the Bestest Instructor EVAR!!1!
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2015, 07:45:42 PM »
Quote from: jthhapkido
...
If I wanted to directly disparage that particular group, it would be much easier than writing about ignorant people posting reviews about classes.
...
How do you know I haven't informed the State Patrol?  Along with all the other certified (not licensed, certified) instructors on this forum?
...

That makes your initial post even more confusing. You believe "Instructor Bob" poses enough of a life threatening danger to his students that you've reported him to the State Patrol (or at least you seem to be implying that), but instead of actually warning people that might attend his classes of the danger, you make up a long story "about ignorant people posting reviews about classes" (your words).

If you're concerned that being in Instructor Bob's classes poses a threat to his students lives, why would you write that story instead of just coming right out and saying something along the lines of "From the photos on the CCW Training Academy website (use whatever their real name is), as a professional firearms instructor I'm very concerned about the danger Instructor Bob (use whatever his real name is) seems to be placing his students in. Here's the photos and here's what I'm concerned about...."


Quote from: jthhapkido
Oh, wait, this was just an attempt to get a dig in at me.

For real??

Quote from: jthhapkido
Or perhaps you missed the pictures posted in this thread?

I saw them. Since it was your thread, I thought it was odd someone else posted them and not you.



Offline JTH

  • NFOA Full Member
  • **
  • Join Date: Jan 2009
  • Posts: 2300
  • Shooter
    • Precision Response Training
Re: Instructor Bob is the Bestest Instructor EVAR!!1!
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2015, 09:32:58 PM »
That makes your initial post even more confusing. You believe "Instructor Bob" poses enough of a life threatening danger to his students that you've reported him to the State Patrol (or at least you seem to be implying that), but instead of actually warning people that might attend his classes of the danger, you make up a long story "about ignorant people posting reviews about classes" (your words).

If you're concerned that being in Instructor Bob's classes poses a threat to his students lives, why would you write that story instead of just coming right out and saying something along the lines of "From the photos on the CCW Training Academy website (use whatever their real name is), as a professional firearms instructor I'm very concerned about the danger Instructor Bob (use whatever his real name is) seems to be placing his students in. Here's the photos and here's what I'm concerned about...."


For real??

I saw them. Since it was your thread, I thought it was odd someone else posted them and not you.


So---did you even read the article I posted?  Which was mostly NOT about said training class, and said instructor, but instead, about people rating instructors?  About how people rate courses and instructors, and what we should be paying attention to...?  How people who don't know what they are talking about rate things, and those aren't the people we should be listening to...?

No?  Okay, that makes things more clear.

My article wasn't about that situation.  THAT situation was discussed MONTHS ago.  It happened months ago.  People talked about it and made their own choices about how to deal with it months ago

I'm really not sure why you are fixated on what *I* "should" be doing about that situation, but since it wasn't what my article was actually about, I suggest that you actually read my article as opposed to fixating on what YOU expect it to say.

I didn't name any particular instructor, because that wasn't the point.  When someone else was curious, someone else answered regarding that.  You'll note that MY article and post were about something else.

So....unless you have a REASON to continue to attempt to stir up issues based on what I "should" be doing right now about something that happened months ago that people already made decisions about....

....but hey, since you now have seen pictures of the "safety" in that class, if you feel strongly that something should still be done now, YOU should therefore go out and instruct others in the safety issues.  After all, now that you know, shouldn't you be doing something about it?

After all, that's what you just said I should be doing.... (with negative implications, which has basically come through all of your writing)

Re-reading what you've written so far, it again seems clear that you have decided that what I wrote wasn't what I meant (all evidence to the contrary) and again, you are simply trying to stir up issues where there aren't any, attempting to make me to be something I'm not. 

I note that you pretty much ignored most of what I said in my reply to you.  Which matches how much you ignored from what I wrote on the blog in the first place.  Please feel free to not bother reading my blog anymore. 

Just as a suggestion, though, it probably would help you in the future if, when you read something, you actually attempt to comprehend what is said instead of taking a small section of it and completely making everything about your version of that section.
Precision Response Training
http://precisionresponsetraining.com

Offline tstuart34

  • NFOA Full Member
  • **
  • Join Date: Oct 2013
  • Location: Lincoln
  • Posts: 885
Re: Instructor Bob is the Bestest Instructor EVAR!!1!
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2015, 09:37:34 AM »
Honest and serious question... Does the State audit the business besides doing undercover when a business is being investigated?