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Author Topic: Male effectiveness in fights...  (Read 3134 times)

Offline JTH

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Male effectiveness in fights...
« on: February 12, 2015, 08:02:26 PM »
Brilliant.  Absolutely brilliant.

And quite frankly, COMPLETELY SPOT ON CORRECT EXACT PRECISELY THIS IS HOW IT REALLY IS.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/report-average-male-4000-less-effective-in-fights,36321/


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Offline greg58

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Re: Male effectiveness in fights...
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2015, 08:10:37 PM »
I like your sources!!

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Offline GreyGeek

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Re: Male effectiveness in fights...
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2015, 09:42:46 AM »
Are they trying to say being 1/4th as good as one thinks one is means one looses four times as many fights as one wins?

Every one-on-one fight results in either one winner, one loser or a draw (two losers or two winners?).  Ignoring the draws there cannot be four times as many losers as winners unless the winners are in four times as many fights.  A person who loses four times as many fights as he wins will probably avoid fighting.

Regardless, no matter how good a guy thinks he is there is always a "faster draw", which he'll meet if he continues provoking or responding to provocations. And, one cannot discount the lucky punch.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 09:45:45 AM by GreyGeek »

Offline Mudinyeri

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Re: Male effectiveness in fights...
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2015, 10:54:35 AM »
There's always someone better than you.  It might be me.

Offline abbafandr

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Re: Male effectiveness in fights...
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2015, 11:25:04 AM »
The Onion is more accurate than most of the main stream media.  :P

Offline JTH

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Re: Male effectiveness in fights...
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2015, 11:46:25 AM »
Ok, so starting out we see that "humor" is a topic that apparently is often misunderstood, and that people don't know what "The Onion" is....

Moving on...

Are they trying to say being 1/4th as good as one thinks one is means one looses four times as many fights as one wins?

That's not what "4000% less effective in fights" means, even if it wasn't humor.

Quote
Every one-on-one fight results in either one winner, one loser or a draw (two losers or two winners?).  Ignoring the draws there cannot be four times as many losers as winners unless the winners are in four times as many fights.  A person who loses four times as many fights as he wins will probably avoid fighting.

Again, even if this article was serious, that isn't what was meant.  After all, "effectiveness" may be partially measured by direct outcome, but the count of direct outcome is not the same thing as actual effectiveness versus expected effectiveness.

Quote
Regardless, no matter how good a guy thinks he is there is always a "faster draw", which he'll meet if he continues provoking or responding to provocations. And, one cannot discount the lucky punch.

Yes, that's exactly what this article was about.  It was a warning to people that indeed, eventually you'll run into someone better.

As Mud says:

There's always someone better than you.  It might be me.

But that ISN'T what it is really about.

It isn't that "someone might be better than you" -- it is really that most people don't know anything, and they suck at fighting.  It isn't that there is that One Guy out there who can outfight you--it is that almost ANYONE who is violent is better than you.

...and yet, the reason this humor is so effective is that:

1) Apparently people miss the point and take this seriously, but more importantly
2) It is really talking about the fact that most males really DO think they can defend themselves, that their fighting ability is high, and that they can "take care of themselves" in causes of altercation---and they are pretty much wrong.

One of the things I say every time I teach a women's self-defense class is that most men think they already know how to defend themselves, and most women think that they can't defend themselves--and both groups are very, very wrong.

Fighting and self-defense aren't the same thing.  And most men can't fight, much less defend themselves effectively.  They've had no training, learned nothing about it, and don't understand violence at all.  As such, they vastly overestimate their own abilities.

This is true in the firearms self-defense world also, of course.  People whose self-defense draw is such that they'd never get the gun out in time, whose technique is such that even at contact distance they are likely to miss, whose awareness is completely lacking--but who THINK that they are the sheepdogs among the sheep whose tactical awareness magically keeps them safe. 

The guy at the end of the video on the link is someone I've run into many times in the martial arts community (and when discussing martial arts).  Transpose what he is saying to firearms self-defense, and I'm met plenty of "that guy" also.

It amuses me that many people watching that video (and reading what was at the link) will think "Yeah, that's true" but completely miss the fact that it means THEM in additional all the other people they are thinking about.

We've seen pronouncements regarding self-defense practice on this forum that were just ridiculous in terms of reality.  (Some of which people have called out, some of which people have just left alone.)  Whether empty hand or armed, most males have a vastly over-inflated sense of innate toughness that just doesn't exist.

And it is funny how many people don't realize how funny this link really is....
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 12:00:23 PM by jthhapkido »
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Offline Mudinyeri

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Re: Male effectiveness in fights...
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2015, 01:23:23 PM »
"Humor is the good natured side of a truth." Mark Twain

Thomas, is it possible that your interpretation isn't the only "right" interpretation?

I'll agree that most people (I won't limit my comments to males) have no idea what it's like to be in a REAL fight (between adults) - a fight with no rules, no judges, no gloves, no mouth guards, no floor mats or boxing rings and no way to "tap out".  As the great philosopher Mike Tyson said, "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face."

I'd be willing to bet that the percentage of the U.S. population that has been punched in the face (outside of fighting sports) by another adult is less than 1%.  Until this has happened to you, you have no way of knowing how you will react.

One could argue that boxers and those who participate in full-contact martial arts fighting have some idea.  The rules protect them, though.  In a REAL fight, you're completely exposed.  There are no rules.  There is no certainty that a referee (or helpful bystander) will step in and stop the fight if things go really bad.  There is no Marquess of Queensbury code of gentlemanly conduct.

Offline JTH

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Re: Male effectiveness in fights...
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2015, 02:44:13 PM »
"Humor is the good natured side of a truth." Mark Twain

I love Mark Twain.  And he knew that wasn't the only type of humor.

Quote
Thomas, is it possible that your interpretation isn't the only "right" interpretation?

Absolutely.  However, that doesn't change the fact that its main point is one rather important interpretation.  And that saying things that not only aren't that point (even though they may be another) but MISS that point, is important also.

(Missing the point is different than making a different point.)

(Have you noticed how you often you insist that your point is the important one?)

Quote
I'll agree that most people (I won't limit my comments to males) have no idea what it's like to be in a REAL fight (between adults) - a fight with no rules, no judges, no gloves, no mouth guards, no floor mats or boxing rings and no way to "tap out".  As the great philosopher Mike Tyson said, "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face."

I'd be willing to bet that the percentage of the U.S. population that has been punched in the face (outside of fighting sports) by another adult is less than 1%.  Until this has happened to you, you have no way of knowing how you will react.

One could argue that boxers and those who participate in full-contact martial arts fighting have some idea.  The rules protect them, though.  In a REAL fight, you're completely exposed.  There are no rules.  There is no certainty that a referee (or helpful bystander) will step in and stop the fight if things go really bad.  There is no Marquess of Queensbury code of gentlemanly conduct.

Again, missing the point.  Of course most people don't know about violence, because they've never had to participate in a violent situation.  That's not the point.

The point is that many males think their effectiveness is significantly higher than it is, in violent situations.  Your point is about actual facts, which is not in dispute.  The article is discussing opinions people have about themselves.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 02:47:40 PM by jthhapkido »
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Offline farmerbob

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Re: Male effectiveness in fights...
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2015, 05:49:36 PM »
What happened to the good old days when there were rules in a fight?



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Offline shooter

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Re: Male effectiveness in fights...
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2015, 09:58:08 PM »
 Rules? In  knife fight?

 
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Offline DenmanShooter

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Re: Male effectiveness in fights...
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2015, 10:19:15 PM »
Hey man, let's just all calm down. Okay?

Best quote.

 :P :P :P :P :P :P

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Offline Mudinyeri

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Re: Male effectiveness in fights...
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2015, 10:31:35 AM »
(Have you noticed how you often you insist that your point is the important one?)

Again, missing the point.  Of course most people don't know about violence, because they've never had to participate in a violent situation.  That's not the point.

The point is that many males think their effectiveness is significantly higher than it is, in violent situations.  Your point is about actual facts, which is not in dispute.  The article is discussing opinions people have about themselves.

My point is my point.  Nothing more.  Nothing less.  It is no more or no less important than yours or someone else's.  However, when you unequivocally state that I (or someone else) am missing the point, I try to explain how I arrived at that point.  Perhaps, in your mind, that is me insisting that my point is more important than yours.  Quite the contrary, it is usually me suggesting that your way is not the only way or interpreting something.  (Ever notice how often you tell people that they are missing the point?)  The great thing about interpretation is that it is unique to the individual.  Two people can come to a different conclusion after reading a particular article and both be right!

You're mighty confident that you know the point aren't you?  Do you have special insight into mind of the author of the Onion article?

Why do you think men (people) have the opinion that their "effectiveness is significantly higher than it is?"  Is it ... oh, I don't know ... because of a lack of experience and/or information?  Could there be a correlation and you simply missed the point?

Offline JTH

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Re: Male effectiveness in fights...
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2015, 02:55:15 PM »
My point is my point.  Nothing more.  Nothing less.  It is no more or no less important than yours or someone else's.  However, when you unequivocally state that I (or someone else) am missing the point, I try to explain how I arrived at that point.  Perhaps, in your mind, that is me insisting that my point is more important than yours.  Quite the contrary, it is usually me suggesting that your way is not the only way or interpreting something.  (Ever notice how often you tell people that they are missing the point?)  The great thing about interpretation is that it is unique to the individual.  Two people can come to a different conclusion after reading a particular article and both be right!

You're mighty confident that you know the point aren't you?  Do you have special insight into mind of the author of the Onion article?

Why do you think men (people) have the opinion that their "effectiveness is significantly higher than it is?"  Is it ... oh, I don't know ... because of a lack of experience and/or information?  Could there be a correlation and you simply missed the point?

That's pretty amazing thinking there.  I'm just going to leave it, because your point and your reasoning for it are extremely clear, and I just don't need to point out anything in it at all for more clarity regarding the initial post, the subsequent discussion, and your commentary, because your point of view and attitude and thinking process is quite clear.
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Offline JTH

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Re: Male effectiveness in fights...
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2015, 03:00:55 PM »
I was wrong---I need to say one more thing, which I note is often a point of contention in many discussions:

Everyone certainly may have whatever opinions they like.  However, the value that should be ascribed to those opinions varies widely--and more importantly, opinions don't actually change facts.   So when opinions are at odds with facts, the opinions are just wrong, though the people holding them are still welcome to continue to hold their opinions.  However, also "of course" it doesn't make them right.

All opinions aren't equal.  And yes, opinions can be wrong, too.

Saying "my point is my point" doesn't make it more right or wrong than any other statement.  As such, it is able to be discussed in factual terms just like anything else.  It someone says something incorrect, the fact that it is "their point" makes no difference.
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Offline Mudinyeri

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Re: Male effectiveness in fights...
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2015, 04:35:25 PM »
... because your point of view and attitude and thinking process is quite clear.


As are yours.

Offline depserv

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Re: Male effectiveness in fights...
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2015, 09:32:06 AM »
I think a lot of us who have studied self defense have some understanding that we might not do as well in a real fight as we like to think we would.  My response is to be sure I never get in a fight unless there is no reasonable alternative; that way if I lose I won't be any worse off than if I had not made the decision to fight.  And even if any of us might be 4000 times BETTER than we thought we might be, avoiding the fight still keeps us out of jail and avoids lawsuits and unintended consequences like innocent third parties getting hurt.  So to me, while there might be some humor in the article (which I have to admit I failed to see; call me naïve), it doesn't really provide any useful insight, because we already know better than to get into a fight unless there is no reasonable alternative.  At least most of us do, and those who don't aren't likely to change their minds because of this article. 

Going too far in avoiding a fight can lead to a greater problem than overestimating ones ability to fight.  For example, if someone tries to take control of you, as with forcing you into a car for example, you can avoid a fight by going along with them and doing what they tell you to do, because who knows, they might not hurt you, and if you're convinced that your ability to fight back against an aggressor is only a miniscule fraction of what you think it is, it makes more sense to make the decision to do that, or at least it might make more sense, because why fight back if it's a virtual certainty that you will fail?  So to me, trying to convince people that they are powerless to fight back against aggression does a disservice.  It might be argued that that was not the point to this piece, but it was what I got out of it.  And I don't agree with their ridiculously high number either.  But like I said it doesn't matter to me, because I'll avoid a fight whenever I can anyway.  I've walked away from fights I was sure I could have won, and at my age now I'm even more likely to do that.
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