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Author Topic: NFOA on Channel 7 Omaha  (Read 3086 times)

Offline RLMoeller

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Re: NFOA on Channel 7 Omaha
« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2015, 10:32:36 AM »
Simple way to get this information.  Go to a half dozen AA meetings and ask who owns a gun.  Then ask them if they would be willing to participate in a survey.  Oddly,  Lots of guns owners surveyed happen to also be binge drinkers.

Not saying that is what happened, but like Toby points out there are many aspects of any study that needs to be evaluated to insure integrity of the study and attempt to eliminate biases.

Offline Mudinyeri

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Re: NFOA on Channel 7 Omaha
« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2015, 01:03:58 PM »
Simple way to get this information.  Go to a half dozen AA meetings and ask who owns a gun.  Then ask them if they would be willing to participate in a survey.  Oddly,  Lots of guns owners surveyed happen to also be binge drinkers.

Not saying that is what happened, but like Toby points out there are many aspects of any study that needs to be evaluated to insure integrity of the study and attempt to eliminate biases.

They reviewed A PORTION of some of the most comprehensive data available - the BRFSS data.  However, for some unknown reason (perhaps simply to cut costs), they ignored the data from AT LEAST twenty-one states that participated in the gathering of the BRFSS data.  At worst, this was done to CREATE bias or bolster an assumptive hypothesis.

Offline Mali

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Re: NFOA on Channel 7 Omaha
« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2015, 04:03:59 PM »
Received a response from the reporter at KETV:
Quote
Thank you for your comments.
I am sorry you felt the story was biased. I try to be fair and accurate.  And present both sides of an issue.
 The figures Ms Gailey referred to  was from a Injury Prevention study, That is a medical peer review journal.  The study indicated gun owners who felt the need to carry their weapons out side of their homes for protection were twice as likely to binge drink. Or drink and drive .
  I did not cite the study or the fact Senator Patty Pansing-Brooks specifically questioned where that study came from.
  Which Ms Gailey responded and cited the research information.
   That might have been helpful to viewers I had reported that full information so they could weigh the credibility of the source of the study
   Your point is well taken.
    Andrew Ozaki KETV Omaha
   Please feel free to contact me if you have a have any further questions my direct number is ###-###-####

I have not replied to this yet, but I am not really happy with the reply nor the original quote, especially if this is the same study you guys mentioned earlier with a whopping 16K participants.
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same. - Ronald Reagan

Offline JTH

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Re: NFOA on Channel 7 Omaha
« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2015, 07:35:37 PM »
Received a response from the reporter at KETV:
I have not replied to this yet, but I am not really happy with the reply nor the original quote, especially if this is the same study you guys mentioned earlier with a whopping 16K participants.

It is this poorly-done study:  https://www.dropbox.com/s/7vrou1xas4tiyb9/Firearms%20and%20Alcohol.pdf?dl=0

The reason the data is only from those two years (1996 and 1997) and only from those few states, and only those few people---is that those are pretty much the only years in which firearms data AND alcohol data were taken from a larger enough group for Wintemute to badly generalize results.  After 1997, firearms data was not taken, if I recall correctly (due to a number of issues with the accuracy of the data), and many states did NOT take that data set anyway.

I note that as normal, Wintemute's results bearing only passing resemblance to conclusions actually supported by the data, and as ALSO is normal, he still can't do math.

His Table 1 N percentages are only correct because his first column % are based on the total number of participants, but the REST of his numbers are based only on the number of people who had guns in the first place, and his odds ratios are completely unnecessary as this data is merely the raw numbers compared to a semi-randomly chosen referent that has nothing to do with anything.  It also attempts to make conclusions based on numbers as low as single digits, yet forms "odds ratios" for risk assessment even though at least once the referent has a data value of zero.

Um, it doesn't work that way.

And that's just the demographic and raw data section. 

Note:  In there, while his first column of data is based on a sample size of 15-16K, the REST of his calculations are based on a sample size one third of that.

Looking at Table 2, it gets worse---the sample he is basing his numbers on 1) varies in size by demographic of choice, and 2) includes extremely TINY sample populations, from which conclusions should not be reached.

I'm not sure what statistical software package he used to calculate his odds ratios in tables 2 and 3 (or in 1, really, but it is less important there because it is completely meaningless in table 1 compared to the others) but it certainly doesn't match any I've ever seen.  Managing to get an odds ratio of 1.66 (1.54 to 1.80) when comparing a prevalence of 46.8% to 59.4% requires New Math.  The rest of his odds ratios are similar.

In the multivariate analysis (which I assume he calculated no better than anything prior to it) he even says:  "Firearms owners who engaged in firearm-related risk behaviours were again generally more likely than others to report alcohol-related risk behaviours, and were in all cases more likely to do so that were persons with no firearms at home."

...and yet, this is blantantly untrue.  He considers carrying a firearm for protection and confronting someone else with a gun as firearm risk behaviors.  And yet, in every single one of those cases, firearms owners confidence intervals showed NO statistical significance.  Every single CI contained 1.0 as a possible value--for drinking ANY alcohol, >5 drinks, drinking and driving, and >60 drinks a month.

Meaning:  NO statistical significance to ANY of that.

In other words, in terms of the specific things that we are talking about here (CCW folks)---even THIS incredibly biased study can't show any particular increase in alcoholic behavior among people who carry firearms for self-protection, or have had to confront someone else with a firearm.

And that completely leaves out the fact that this study does not even attempt to study the difference between legal gun ownership, and illegal gun ownership.  Plus, "respondents" could be of ages 18 on up, so many of these aren't even in the right age group to drink legally OR own handguns legally.   (You'll note he put 18-24 as a demographic, instead of 18-20 and 21-24.)  And of course this study is about any firearm, so an 18-year-old with a hunting shotgun is treated the same as a 30-year-old with a CCW.

His study is full of complete fail, and STILL can't actually support a contention that CCW holders are more prone to alcohol abuse.

Sorry about any typos.  :)
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Offline JTH

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Re: NFOA on Channel 7 Omaha
« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2015, 07:42:00 PM »
Let's not also forget that his study cites studies by Hemenway, himself, and that PARAGON of medical firearms studies, Kellermann himself.

All of which have been pretty thoroughly trashed in the literature due to their only passing resemblance to reality.

Good note to remember:  Anyone who cites a study by Kellermann on firearms probably is an idiot who has such a bias that their research will contain factually incorrect statements.  People who do good research simply will not cite a study from someone like Kellermann, whose studies have been thoroughly trashed for poor data-taking, faulty reasoning, and conclusions that are not supported by the data.  You won't see them.
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Offline JAK

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Re: NFOA on Channel 7 Omaha
« Reply #25 on: March 24, 2015, 07:48:40 PM »
And in response to my letter to Channel 7, I got exactly the same response as others,

I am so glad that so much thought was put into the response

John K

"Thank you for your comments.
I am sorry you felt the story was biased. I try to be fair and accurate.  And present both sides of an issue.
 The figures Ms Gailey referred to  was from a Injury Prevention study, That is a medical peer review journal.  The study indicated gun owners who felt the need to carry their weapons out side of their homes for protection were twice as likely to binge drink. Or drink and drive .
  I did not cite the study or the fact Senator Patty Pansing-Brooks specifically questioned where that study came from.
  Which Ms Gailey responded and cited the research information.
   That might have been helpful to viewers I had reported that full information so they could weigh the credibility of the source of the study
   Your point is well taken.
    Andrew Ozaki KETV Omaha
   Please feel free to contact me if you have a have any further questions my direct number is XXXXXXXXX"

Offline Gunscribe

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Re: NFOA on Channel 7 Omaha
« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2015, 10:35:26 PM »
I have yet to receive a response.
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Offline Mali

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Re: NFOA on Channel 7 Omaha
« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2015, 08:03:26 AM »
"Thank you for your comments.
I am sorry you felt the story was biased. I try to be fair and accurate.  And present both sides of an issue.
 The figures Ms Gailey referred to  was from a Injury Prevention study, That is a medical peer review journal.  The study indicated gun owners who felt the need to carry their weapons out side of their homes for protection were twice as likely to binge drink. Or drink and drive .
  I did not cite the study or the fact Senator Patty Pansing-Brooks specifically questioned where that study came from.
  Which Ms Gailey responded and cited the research information.
   That might have been helpful to viewers I had reported that full information so they could weigh the credibility of the source of the study
   Your point is well taken.
    Andrew Ozaki KETV Omaha
   Please feel free to contact me if you have a have any further questions my direct number is XXXXXXXXX"
So basically we got a form response from him since that is EXACTLY the response I received.
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same. - Ronald Reagan

Offline farmerbob

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Re: NFOA on Channel 7 Omaha
« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2015, 09:44:00 AM »
I have yet to receive a response.


That makes two of us.
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Offline Mudinyeri

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Re: NFOA on Channel 7 Omaha
« Reply #29 on: March 25, 2015, 11:06:44 AM »