Multi gun question

[sparky0068]

In heavy limited, are slings allowed on the rifle?

[JTH]

In heavy limited, are slings allowed on the rifle?

If you want, yes.  But....you won't ever be using a sling in the local matches at ENGC.  (You aren't going to be taking shots past 300 meters at ENGC in Multigun, so there isn't any reason to sling up for accuracy purposes, and you won't be carrying a slung rifle ever.) As such, it'll mostly be in the way.  I'd suggest taking it off unless it is a pain to remove.

[GreggL]

Have the dates been set for this years ENGC Multi Gun matches? I like to get them on my calendar
early so things like scheduling family vacations can be worked around them!

Thanks.

[abbafandr]

Have the dates been set for this years ENGC Multi Gun matches? I like to get them on my calendar
early so things like scheduling family vacations can be worked around them!

Thanks.

Yes, they have.
3/20/2016, 4/17/2016, 8/21/2016, & 9/18/2016

[tstuart34]

Yes, they have.
3/20/2016, 4/17/2016, 8/21/2016, & 9/18/2016

They need more... Glad to see they dropped the Nov match!

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[abbafandr]

They need more... Glad to see they dropped the Nov match!



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Definitely need some more

[JTH]

They need more... Glad to see they dropped the Nov match!

Actually, as has been mentioned in the last several matches, MG is significantly in danger of being dropped overall as a discipline, as shooters are not helping sufficient to keep the discipline going.  Without enough ROs to run the match safely, without people volunteering to design and build stages, without people staying after to put away the equipment (that last one is much less of a current problem) ENPS simply is tired of trying to do it all without much in the way of help.

As such (as has been said at the last several matches, so I'm not making any surprise announcement), if people don't step up to take the RO class, show up to help set up stages, design stages and so on, it'll be canceled and it will be replaced by Pro-Am or Steel Challenge matches where people DO step up to help out.

And right now, many of the people who were talking about how much they love Multigun (I don't mean in this thread, so this isn't directed to anyone here) haven't signed up to design a stage, and haven't signed up for the RO class.

Stage setup is important, but one of the the biggest issues is RO staffing.  There are a lot of current ROs who simply don't shoot multigun--but have shown up to run shooters anyway.  They are kinda tired of that.  But if they don't, we only have one or two ROs per squad, which is NOT enough to run shooters and let themselves shoot---and this is volunteer.  Those ROs are helping out because they care about the sport, but if they don't get to have any fun at the match either, they aren't going to do it.

If people don't step up, MG won't happen.  And it'll be replaced by disciplines where people DO help out, so the ROs don't get burned out.

[GreggL]

Okay, being a relative new comer to the sport, I'm going to ask.

1. Any requirements for volunteers to design stages? I am already aware that it is
    good form to show up early and help set the stages up!

2. To become an RO, attend the USPSA Range Officer class, scheduled for April 9-10
     in Louisville put on by ENPS? Any requirements for that?

3. How do I convince friends and family members to take up this sport?

Thanks!

[abbafandr]

Okay, being a relative new comer to the sport, I'm going to ask.

1. Any requirements for volunteers to design stages? I am already aware that it is
    good form to show up early and help set the stages up!

2. To become an RO, attend the USPSA Range Officer class, scheduled for April 9-10
     in Louisville put on by ENPS? Any requirements for that?

3. How do I convince friends and family members to take up this sport?

Thanks!

RO class requires USPSA  membership.

[JTH]

Okay, being a relative new comer to the sport, I'm going to ask.

1. Any requirements for volunteers to design stages? I am already aware that it is
    good form to show up early and help set the stages up!

Not exactly....if you are new to designing stages, it is a good idea (saves time and hassle) to sketch up something beforehand, and send it to one of the more experienced stage designers for some commentary.  You can have a conversation with them about stage design, get some suggestions, perhaps remove any potential safety or shoot-through issues, along with making sure the stage is legal for competition.

That isn't a requirement, but it is a REALLY good idea that tends to help a lot. 

2. To become an RO, attend the USPSA Range Officer class, scheduled for April 9-10
     in Louisville put on by ENPS? Any requirements for that?

As someone has already said, you must to be a USPSA member to take the RO class.  It helps to have shot a number of competitions so that you have some experience with how matches go.

3. How do I convince friends and family members to take up this sport?

Mostly, invite them out to watch a match!  Then, take them to the range sometime and help them get comfortable with the basic skill requirements of action matches (drawing from a holster, reloads, moving...all in a safe fashion).  Often, letting them borrow gear is helpful.

Then just have them sign up, make sure you are squadded with them, and make sure people on your squad know they are new and that they will be happy to get help!

The great thing about action shooting is that often, just watching a match is enough to make someone want to try it.  In general, if you can just get someone to the match that'll do it. 

The part about taking them to the range and getting them comfortable with the basic skills can really make a difference, too.  (Make sure they also know that they don't have to be as fast as anyone else---they just have to be as SAFE as everyone else.)

[jonm]

why not run it as an outlaw match vs uspsa multigun so you can use NRA certified ROs like Hornady does or just make a local class to certify ROs like the other major 3 gun matches? is there something specific between ENPS and USPSA?

[JTH]

why not run it as an outlaw match vs uspsa multigun so you can use NRA certified ROs like Hornady does or just make a local class to certify ROs like the other major 3 gun matches? is there something specific between ENPS and USPSA?

The NRA RSO certification basically trains you how to run a common firing line for slow-fire rifle.  It in no way teaches you how to run shooters in any action sport, whether SC, USPSA pistol, or Multigun.  (Speaking as someone who is an NRA RSO.)  Someone who has the NRA RSO certification (only) is not prepared to run shooters.  Flat-out, they just aren't prepared, and they don't know the rules.

(Speaking as someone who was there at the first Zombie Match at Heartland, and who has shot there for other matches---they found out really quickly that being NRA RSOs did not prepare them for action matches.)

As for certifying local ROs with a local curriculum---that is pretty meaningless.  Why would we do it?  If we are using a specific set of rules, why not have people certified on those rules?  Actually learning about how matches are run correctly?  (As opposed to "well, here is how they are run here in this one place, with this one particular set of rules that no one else uses...")

And....also why do that when it would take a day for a certification class of that type when we could instead take the same day for a certification class that has meaning in more places than just-this-one-club-for-just-this-one-match?

I note that the questions I'm responding to aren't anything that would actually solve the real problem, which is straightforward:

People want to shoot MG matches.  But many don't seem to want to help out.  And this is a volunteer sport.  If no one volunteers, the few people who have been running everything will get tired of it, and shift back to offering the sports that people WILL help out with.

We hold an RO class every single year.  It is available to people.  We specifically pick days so that the people who have complained about it being on match days don't have to miss a match.  We advertise it months in advance, so people can arrange to take it.  No matter what particular certification we'd want people to have, they'd still have to take a day for a class.  So we might as well have one that actually means something...so we bring in an official NROI instructor and host one every single year.

...and we have people who complain at matches about how the ROs aren't doing their jobs fast enough, and how they didn't pay a match fee to help set up, and how they are there to shoot not clean up, etc....and I'll note I can name specific names of people who have said that in the hearing of multiple people.

None of us get paid for doing any of this, and the people who run the matches pay match fees also.  We do it because we love shooting, and we want to let everyone have more chances to shoot fun competitions.  And the people who HAVE been doing all the work (and paying match fees also, just like the people who complain all the time) are tired of carrying the weight of all the complainers who show up late, shoot, and then leave without lifting a hand to help the match.

And lo and behold, those complainers don't take the RO class, either.  They want to shoot, but they want everyone else to do the work for them.  They paid their match fee and they are just there to shoot, right?

If folks want MG to continue, they have to step up and help out.

[abbafandr]

I'm taking the RO class.  I intend to use for MG as well as the pistol matches.

Designing stages is rather fun.  The first time I designed a stage I didn't go over it with any experienced stage designers... it didn't end up anything like planned   But after learning a few basic rules, it has gotten better.  Don't take it personal if the match director or anyone makes suggestions or changes, it will probably happen; the transition from paper to the shooting bay doesn't always go as planned, ask me how I know

I'm designing my first MG stage for the match in March. 

[tstuart34]

I designed a stage last year for MG it was a lot of fun a little challenging. I would like to get the bay dimensions so i can be fancy and try and scale things a little better with CAD. haha But over all Tom was a lot of help for me and helped me make a stage that was safe easy to reset and a lot of fun. I shot really well in it surprisingly since i didn't shoot that well over all in the match overall.

Regarding the RO Class.... Am I understanding it correctly that it is a two day class? This and my limited shooting budget would be what keeps me from from taking the RO class. It is hard for me to get a full weekend pass. I will do my best to support MG by coming early to the matches, designing stages, and score keeping during the events.

I sent Tom a e-mail tonight but please let me know if I can help out at all. As of right now I am planning on attending all of the matches.

Just curious besides the match admin participation does ENPS feel that they are getting enough shooters to participate in the match itself?

[jonm]

I'm not saying it would fix the problem but it sure can't hurt it. I have no interest in becoming a uspsa member but would be willing to RO multigun. so since I can't RO, I have designed staged, ran the nook, and been there for setup and tear down.

[Dakafall]

I've designed a couple stages in the past and have several new designs saved up that I would gladly break out for a match.  Unfortunately I'm unable to attend the RO training due to work, but have no issues running the nook or helping in any other way.

[JTH]

Regarding the RO Class.... Am I understanding it correctly that it is a two day class?

Day and a half.  All day Saturday and half day on Sunday, generally.

Just curious besides the match admin participation does ENPS feel that they are getting enough shooters to participate in the match itself?

Sure, plenty of people show up and shoot.  Very few of them do more than just shoot, though.  That's one of the big problems, really---lots of people are there to shoot, but only a couple actually help out, which means those few people have to carry all of those others all day.

I'm not saying it would fix the problem but it sure can't hurt it. I have no interest in becoming a uspsa member but would be willing to RO multigun. so since I can't RO, I have designed staged, ran the nook, and been there for setup and tear down.

Actually, it probably would hurt it, simply because people who aren't trained don't know the rules.  As people find out pretty quickly, it isn't just standing there with a timer and saying "go"---there is a lot more to it.  And running shooters in a fair, consistent manner that follows the rules every time is something that requires training.

It is something that pretty much every match (that has successfully continued for years) finds out---having a trained set of ROs running the shooters makes a huge difference.   Untrained folks with timers who make "judgement calls" based on a non-understanding of rules doesn't work out.

I've designed a couple stages in the past and have several new designs saved up that I would gladly break out for a match.  Unfortunately I'm unable to attend the RO training due to work, but have no issues running the nook or helping in any other way.

Help is appreciated, always.  Definitely.

In general, what is currently needed, in no particular order, is:

1) people to take the RO class who plan on shooting and helping with Multigun matches,
2) people actually showing up at 7:15am or so to help set up stages, and
3) people volunteering to design stages and then showing up at 7:15am to set up stages.

And also, 4) staying after and helping tear down the stages and get them all put away into the shed.  (We have one group of people who just disappears once the shooting is done or just HAPPENS to have finished taking off their gear when the stage is finished being broken down, and another group that helps tear down the stage, but disappears when people are trying to put things away in the shed.)

My next comment isn't a dig or a comment about anyone in this thread, it is just a general observation:

I can't tell you how many times I have been helping set up a stage for a Multigun match, and looked up to see groups of people in the parking lot putting together their gear, or just standing around talking.  People are obviously working to get stages built, and lots of people just---don't care.  They just stand there and wait for others to do the work so they can shoot.

And I've heard multiple people say "I didn't pay a match fee to set up stages" and other variations with regarding to building stages, setting up stages, resetting stages during the match, and so on.  (Okay, one comment about someone in this thread:  One person posting in this thread was one of those people who has told my wife, on more than one occasion, "I didn't pay to work this match.")

I really hope that people DO start helping out.  I know directly that several people in this thread mean well, and I KNOW that abbafandr already works a TON to help out at matches.   

I like shooting Multigun, and I'd like to continue. 

But when I see guys like Dick Marx, George Leith, or Emory Emond out there resetting a multigun stage while guys literally half their ages are sitting on their butts "resting" because they "didn't pay to work" it kinda pisses me off.

I'm glad you guys are interested in supporting Multigun, and I hope that you bring friends who are also interested in supporting Multigun.

I will say, though, the next guy that tells me "I didn't pay to work," or ignores it when he is asked to help set up a stage as he is standing around, is flat-out going to get called on it in front of everyone.  (That's just me, though, not speaking for the ENPS committee or the match director.)  If you are going to say that, be prepared to have it public.

To those planning on coming and helping:  Thank you.  Hopefully there will be enough of you to make a difference.