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Nebraska State CCW Course…

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ILoveCats:

--- Quote from: Captdad17 on May 02, 2016, 05:45:26 AM ---I recently completed my training and was very impressed.  Not just with what was taught about safety, fundamentals, and legal ramifications, but everything else that goes into carrying a concealed weapon.

<climbs on soapbox>
I don't think everyone should be carrying a concealed weapon.  Don't get me wrong, I know it's our right and boneheaded felons and wife-beaters out there lose that right, but there are some people, law-abiding people, that do more harm than good.  We've all heard the stories about the guy who uses his weapon to defend his property or the show-off who fires a shot into the wall as he's showing his buddy his new piece.  I feel that carrying is something that has to be earned, by demonstrating you're willing to train, to learn, to accept the consequences of what will happen to you and your family if you ever encounter a situation where deadly force is required and you choose to use it.  It's a responsibility that's not to be taken lightly and so far, I've been impressed with the members of this forum as I have not gotten the impression to the contrary.
<climbs down from soapbox>

The training that everyone gets when carrying concealed should make them stop and think about what they are getting themselves into.  As a prior military cop, I know it all too well.  I've seen it first hand.  Expect to be arrested, expect to lose your weapon, expect to go through a living hell.  If you think then when you shoot the bad guy, you'll find yourself wrapped in a comfy blanket in the back of an ambulance sipping hot coffee while the cops around you are trying to console you, you need to quit watching TV.  The real world isn't like that.

There is no "fast track" as the article that jthhapkido posted pointed out.  In fact, an 8-hour class doesn't even do it justice.  Be prepared to commit, to train, to study, and realize that now that you carry a concealed weapon, your life with change forever.  You are now a sheepdog.  If you can't handle that, it's ok to be a sheep.

--- End quote ---


With all due respect I disagree with some of that.

A few decades ago your “average” gun owner might have been the guy with a red plaid jacket and Elmer Fudd hat, taking to the Pennsylvania woods every fall to get his deer.  Now with a generation who have returned from their own wars abroad (and an enemy trying to bring one to us at home) you’ve got a new shooting renaissance and booming interest in firearms.  Hey, that’s all fine and dandy.  But the caricature now is much less Norman Rockwellesque.  Now we have That Guy as the self-proclaimed expert: the guy with the 5.11 cargo pants and tactical goatee and punisher sticker on the back of his car.  He might have only picked up a gun for the first time when he was in basic training, but now he’s an expert and an operator, and knows waaaaaaay more than people who don’t have his experiences in "the sandbox."

At the same time you’ve got lots of other tactical goatee guys setting up an entire training industry trying to convince us that we’re going to spontaneously combust if we even touch a gun without months of training.

I don’t entirely buy that.  Like most of us here in agriculture / rural America, I pretty much grew up with a gun in my hand straight out of the womb.  I learned to accept consequences and responsibility of a gun before I was ten. I was operating heavy machinery, in close quarters with family members, years before my peers took “drivers ed”. I'm not repeat not saying that's the exact equivalent of intensive firearms training. I am saying that what makes a person smart (from an "emotional intelligence" perspective) and responsible and level-headed under stress is very complex and is stuff that goes back to their earliest years of development and how they were raised.

I’m all for training, but it’s not the end-all, be-all.  You can send someone at work off to leadership training, but they still will come back as bad manager if they’re a bone-headed idiot because they were raised by bone-headed parents.  And if you take someone who already has common sense and leadership skills, then yes they’ll come back better, but they were already a better leader un-trained than the idiot is after training.

Training is good, but an unhealthy preoccupation with training as a requirement is antithetical to what the NFOA should be promoting. To say that anyone is able to define who does or doesn't have the needed emotional intelligence goes against what we believe, and is a problem permeating our society which we should be fighting. That kind of thinking leads to bad politics. It also leads to bad policing from poor officers who fail to view themselves as simply a citizen who's there to help, and start to view themselves as smarter or better trained.

And, I'm yet to be convinced statistically that training builds emotional intelligence relevant to an unpredictable one-in-a-million chance a person would have to use lethal force. At least, I'm not sure it builds it any better than any other exercise that forces a person to operate under stress and tunnel vision, whether it's motorcycle racing, or performing in an athletic event in front of a crowd, or that Pennsylvania hunter learning to overcome "buck fever" when a monster deer presents himself for a few seconds.

Firearms have been in civilian hands for many hundreds of years and, for all that time, have done a dandy job of leveling the playing field between bad people and good people. They were serving that role, and deemed as a human right, long before the tacticool pants and punisher stickers, and long before training gurus started to pigeonhole the world using hackneyed, false trichotomy logical fallacies involving sheep and dogs.

Just my two cents.

 

Captdad17:
Well, I have to admit, I did not intend to stir up quite the hornet's nest, but I am glad I did.  What makes this such a great country to live in isn't just the Second Amendment, but also the First.  "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" (or something along those lines).  I want everyone reading this to understand that I have a deep respect for everyone's opinion and after reading through the posts this week, it has given me some perspective.

I have no idea how to keep this brief, but I will do my best.  First, a quick backstory.  I grew up in western Omaha (before Elkhorn was annexed) and never touched a gun when I was a kid (thanks to an "absentee" father).  I went to college, got a degree in Criminal Justice,  and became an Air Force cop after I graduated.  I served for 10 years and got out as a Captain.  I was then a Correctional Officer at the Lancaster Country Jail for 6 years.  I now fix computers for one of the largest employers in Lincoln.  I have two kids, girl and a boy, who are now teenagers.

The reason I'm painting this picture is because my opinions are based on my experiences, just like everyone else who is reading this right now.  I experienced many things when I was in law enforcement, but by far what made the biggest impact was when I responded to one of my airmen who had taken his own life with his service weapon.  My kids were very young when that happened, but after seeing that, and the devastation it left behind with this young man's family, I told myself that I would never have a gun in the house until BOTH my kids were mature enough to handle that responsibility.  I got out in May 2005 and bought my first gun since that incident 4 months ago.  For 11 years, I've taught them about guns, how to respect guns, how to handle guns, and even taken them out shooting, always under my watchful eye.  But there has never been a gun in our house until now.

Some people may not agree with me, and I respect that.  But I would venture a guess that those people also have not seen what a 9mm round actually does to a brain cavity at point blank range or the look in a mother's eyes when you have to deliver her son's personal effects.  It's the experiences of life that formulate our opinions.  I agree that we have a God-given right to defend ourselves, no question about that.  And yes, a handgun is a great tool to achieve that end, so is having emotional intelligence.  Using all the tools available to you is paramount, but what that looks like is different for each person.  The reason I think training is so important is because I know what happens when you're under stress and adrenaline takes over.  Your body will go into autopilot and will revert to its training (i.e what its done before over and over again).  Training is learning.  Whatever form that takes is up to you.  Whether it's in a classroom or on a range, it's teaching yourself what to do when your body goes into autopilot.  Again, that's just my opinion based on my own experience.

Look, I'm new to this forum and this organization, so I get that I'm the rookie and have no clue.  But I want everyone to know that I'm looking forward to growing as a responsible gun owner and learning about everyone's perspective on not just this, but other topics as well.  If I've offended anyone here, I sincerely apologize.  That was not my intent.  I'll set aside the soapbox for now and listen to those with more wisdom than I.

Side note, the whole sheepdog "trichotomy" was something I heard from my unit back in 2001, long before American Sniper.  I never heard of Grossman before, so I can't speak to his research, it was just something I found interesting.  The reason I decided to carry was not just to defend myself and my family, but the people I work with, other patrons, and those who cannot defend themselves.  I am completely aware that in doing that, I take on a whole different level of responsibility if I involve myself in a matter that I otherwise shouldn't, but it's a burden I'm willing to bare.

I'm not trying to agitate the hornet's nest further, so again, if I have, my apologies.  Perhaps it's best if I stick to offering free 9mm brass casings  ;D

Lorimor:

--- Quote from: Captdad17 on May 07, 2016, 06:39:31 AM ---Well, I have to admit, I did not intend to stir up quite the hornet's nest, but I am glad I did.  What makes this such a great country to live in isn't just the Second Amendment, but also the First.  "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" (or something along those lines).  I want everyone reading this to understand that I have a deep respect for everyone's opinion and after reading through the posts this week, it has given me some perspective.

I have no idea how to keep this brief, but I will do my best.  First, a quick backstory.  I grew up in western Omaha (before Elkhorn was annexed) and never touched a gun when I was a kid (thanks to an "absentee" father).  I went to college, got a degree in Criminal Justice,  and became an Air Force cop after I graduated.  I served for 10 years and got out as a Captain.  I was then a Correctional Officer at the Lancaster Country Jail for 6 years.  I now fix computers for one of the largest employers in Lincoln.  I have two kids, girl and a boy, who are now teenagers.

The reason I'm painting this picture is because my opinions are based on my experiences, just like everyone else who is reading this right now.  I experienced many things when I was in law enforcement, but by far what made the biggest impact was when I responded to one of my airmen who had taken his own life with his service weapon.  My kids were very young when that happened, but after seeing that, and the devastation it left behind with this young man's family, I told myself that I would never have a gun in the house until BOTH my kids were mature enough to handle that responsibility.  I got out in May 2005 and bought my first gun since that incident 4 months ago.  For 11 years, I've taught them about guns, how to respect guns, how to handle guns, and even taken them out shooting, always under my watchful eye.  But there has never been a gun in our house until now.

Some people may not agree with me, and I respect that.  But I would venture a guess that those people also have not seen what a 9mm round actually does to a brain cavity at point blank range or the look in a mother's eyes when you have to deliver her son's personal effects.  It's the experiences of life that formulate our opinions.  I agree that we have a God-given right to defend ourselves, no question about that.  And yes, a handgun is a great tool to achieve that end, so is having emotional intelligence.  Using all the tools available to you is paramount, but what that looks like is different for each person.  The reason I think training is so important is because I know what happens when you're under stress and adrenaline takes over.  Your body will go into autopilot and will revert to its training (i.e what its done before over and over again).  Training is learning.  Whatever form that takes is up to you.  Whether it's in a classroom or on a range, it's teaching yourself what to do when your body goes into autopilot.  Again, that's just my opinion based on my own experience.

Look, I'm new to this forum and this organization, so I get that I'm the rookie and have no clue.  But I want everyone to know that I'm looking forward to growing as a responsible gun owner and learning about everyone's perspective on not just this, but other topics as well.  If I've offended anyone here, I sincerely apologize.  That was not my intent.  I'll set aside the soapbox for now and listen to those with more wisdom than I.

Side note, the whole sheepdog "trichotomy" was something I heard from my unit back in 2001, long before American Sniper.  I never heard of Grossman before, so I can't speak to his research, it was just something I found interesting.  The reason I decided to carry was not just to defend myself and my family, but the people I work with, other patrons, and those who cannot defend themselves.  I am completely aware that in doing that, I take on a whole different level of responsibility if I involve myself in a matter that I otherwise shouldn't, but it's a burden I'm willing to bare.

I'm not trying to agitate the hornet's nest further, so again, if I have, my apologies.  Perhaps it's best if I stick to offering free 9mm brass casings  ;D


--- End quote ---

I see no reason you should apologize.  You've just sparked a healthy discussion is all. 

You're on the right course.  Keep it up. :)

Lorimor:

--- Quote from: feralcatkillr on May 06, 2016, 01:16:08 PM ---
With all due respect I disagree with some of that.

A few decades ago your “average” gun owner might have been the guy with a red plaid jacket and Elmer Fudd hat, taking to the Pennsylvania woods every fall to get his deer.  Now with a generation who have returned from their own wars abroad (and an enemy trying to bring one to us at home) you’ve got a new shooting renaissance and booming interest in firearms.  Hey, that’s all fine and dandy.  But the caricature now is much less Norman Rockwellesque.  Now we have That Guy as the self-proclaimed expert: the guy with the 5.11 cargo pants and tactical goatee and punisher sticker on the back of his car.  He might have only picked up a gun for the first time when he was in basic training, but now he’s an expert and an operator, and knows waaaaaaay more than people who don’t have his experiences in "the sandbox."

At the same time you’ve got lots of other tactical goatee guys setting up an entire training industry trying to convince us that we’re going to spontaneously combust if we even touch a gun without months of training.

I don’t entirely buy that.  Like most of us here in agriculture / rural America, I pretty much grew up with a gun in my hand straight out of the womb.  I learned to accept consequences and responsibility of a gun before I was ten. I was operating heavy machinery, in close quarters with family members, years before my peers took “drivers ed”. I'm not repeat not saying that's the exact equivalent of intensive firearms training. I am saying that what makes a person smart (from an "emotional intelligence" perspective) and responsible and level-headed under stress is very complex and is stuff that goes back to their earliest years of development and how they were raised.

I’m all for training, but it’s not the end-all, be-all.  You can send someone at work off to leadership training, but they still will come back as bad manager if they’re a bone-headed idiot because they were raised by bone-headed parents.  And if you take someone who already has common sense and leadership skills, then yes they’ll come back better, but they were already a better leader un-trained than the idiot is after training.

Training is good, but an unhealthy preoccupation with training as a requirement is antithetical to what the NFOA should be promoting. To say that anyone is able to define who does or doesn't have the needed emotional intelligence goes against what we believe, and is a problem permeating our society which we should be fighting. That kind of thinking leads to bad politics. It also leads to bad policing from poor officers who fail to view themselves as simply a citizen who's there to help, and start to view themselves as smarter or better trained.

And, I'm yet to be convinced statistically that training builds emotional intelligence relevant to an unpredictable one-in-a-million chance a person would have to use lethal force. At least, I'm not sure it builds it any better than any other exercise that forces a person to operate under stress and tunnel vision, whether it's motorcycle racing, or performing in an athletic event in front of a crowd, or that Pennsylvania hunter learning to overcome "buck fever" when a monster deer presents himself for a few seconds.

Firearms have been in civilian hands for many hundreds of years and, for all that time, have done a dandy job of leveling the playing field between bad people and good people. They were serving that role, and deemed as a human right, long before the tacticool pants and punisher stickers, and long before training gurus started to pigeonhole the world using hackneyed, false trichotomy logical fallacies involving sheep and dogs.

Just my two cents.

 

--- End quote ---

I am a training evangelist.  However, since I put much stock in the old adage about leading a horse to water, I don't believe it should ever be made mandatory.  Beyond that, I have such little faith in government to get it right, I don't want them involved.  Too much room for abuse IMHO.  "Can't operate at Seal Team Nineteen levels?  Sorry Grandma, no gun for you."

I do believe all who carry should get as much training as possible and not just in the shooting skills bit.  Legal, trauma med, mindset, physical, all that and more is good and in many ways, more important than the shooting skills. 

As for myself, I find that the more I learn, the less I know. 

You just don't know what you don't know. 

OnTheFly:
Captdad17,

First of all, welcome to the NFOA and the forum and thank you for your service. You have absolutely NO need to apologize. Like you, I had some ideas and beliefs when I first became interested in firearms. MANY of those have changed.

My first comment is a much more broad subject. I hear many people talk about there rights to free speech, to own firearms, etc. They often tell other individuals that they cannot limit their right to free speech. For example, if an individual tells you to shut up in a public place, they are not oppressing your 1st Amendment rights. However, if the government tries to stifle you, then this could be considered an infringement. In the same way, an individual who says you can not possess any firearms in or on their rental property that you are leasing, this is not infringing on your second amendment rights. The bill of rights is meant to limit the federal government not individuals or businesses.

Regarding the Airman that shot himself. That is a sad story and I wouldn't wish this experience on anyone. A few questions though. If he had not had his service weapon available, would his mental illness not been present, or would he have healed? If he had come to that horrible low point where suicide seemed to be the best viable solution to his problems, could he have killed himself in any other way? I personally think you are putting too much emphasis on the firearm. This is the attitude of most non-gun people, especially those who are anti-gun. They believe that if guns weren't present, everyone would be nice, they wouldn't kill, and suicide wouldn't happen. That just isn't true. A firearm is simply a hunk of metal and plastic. It needs a person to use it in the wrong way.

I used to believe that there should be broader limits on who can posses firearms. Some kind of test or measure. While we all know people who would be wise not to own firearms, it is a slippery slope. We all grew up watching movies of rogue police officers bending (and sometimes absolutely breaking) the law to catch that evil bad guy. In the movie we all accept it because after all, they're the good guy and they are putting away (or killing) the bad guy. In the real world, we don't want this regardless of the good intent. Someday you could be the victim of such a shortcut in justice when an officer believes you are the bad guy. Do some criminals go free...yes. This is an unfortunate result, but the alternate scenario where the legal system is disregarded is by far a more frightening proposition. In the same way, we may find that "reasonable" gun laws will soon be used against us.

Fly

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