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Author Topic: Marine Pistol Qualification: "Expert"  (Read 3024 times)

Offline JTH

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Marine Pistol Qualification: "Expert"
« on: August 17, 2016, 05:58:20 PM »
In the continuing saga of "me saying things I thought were perfectly obvious to everyone, but that nonetheless gets me angry responses from people who think I hate [enter group here]" I shoot the Marine Pistol Qualification, and give my thoughts on what it means to rate "Expert":

https://precisionresponse.wordpress.com/2016/08/13/marine-pistol-qualification/


(When I say "having military experience doesn't automatically make you a firearms expert" why do people get mad and say I hate the military?  Do certain folks have THAT much of their own self-image wrapped up in their idea of how good they are?  Literally, the facts themselves are straightforward, and yet, that apparently doesn't stop people from being mad about it.)
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Offline JTH

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Re: Marine Pistol Qualification: "Expert"
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2016, 06:44:14 PM »
As a comparison, here is a graphic of the actual target superimposed over the target I was using in my video.  The official MPMS target is really huge, and that 8-zone is pretty darn big.

http://imgur.com/uwxE67o
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Offline m morton

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Re: Marine Pistol Qualification: "Expert"
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2016, 08:00:25 PM »
while i was never a "jar head" i was in the army and i can agree that more members of the armed forces never use a pistol . i would say 90% will use the M16 the other 10% use the m60 or saw gun, or M16 with the 203 attached  i qualified expert on the M60 , M16 , and the dragon anti tank . and fired the 50 cal , and saw gun a few times but never for Qualification  during my time in. no one in my company other then the armorer while he was in possession of the weapons vault keys ever carried a side arm on a regular basis . only ones i seen that carry 45 or m9 were the military police . ya a few times i would see a officer carry a side arm but even that was rare. 

(When I say "having military experience doesn't automatically make you a firearms expert"  i have to agree here too you have no idea how many of my platoon qualified marksman and unless there buddy was scoring their card would never see the expert Qualification. Marksmanship Qualification Badges are awarded in three grades (highest to lowest): Expert, Sharpshooter, and Marksman . during my time in i seen more then a few barely get marksman
I will allow myself one personal observation. If you want to disarm yourself, that is your choice. The following quote is a favorite of mine and something to keep in mind when you make that choice.

“Sheep don’t tell wolves what’s for dinner.”

Offline shooter

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Re: Marine Pistol Qualification: "Expert"
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2016, 09:00:30 PM »
we had to qualify with the 1911, we had flip up targets, basicially a IPSC, target that would stand up. made from some kind of rubber material, when you hit it, the target fell over and another one popped up, they were so old, and had been shot so many times, when the stood up, the top half of the target would fold over, giving you just half to shoot at.
  we also got to shoot a lot of older weapons, B.A.R. real old S&W 38,s M1 carbines but the most fun was the grease guns, really a lot of fun,
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Offline bullit

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Re: Marine Pistol Qualification: "Expert"
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2016, 05:34:15 AM »
And then you had to really rub it in by shooting in your Jesus sandals ..... ;)

Offline JTH

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Re: Marine Pistol Qualification: "Expert"
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2016, 06:16:28 AM »
And then you had to really rub it in by shooting in your Jesus sandals ..... ;)

At least they weren't flip-flops?  :)

(I can't stand flip-flops.)

we had to qualify with the 1911, we had flip up targets, basicially a IPSC, target that would stand up. made from some kind of rubber material, when you hit it, the target fell over and another one popped up, they were so old, and had been shot so many times, when the stood up, the top half of the target would fold over, giving you just half to shoot at.
 
From what it looks like, the Army folks still have a course of fire like that for pistol qualification.  It looks like surprise targets at a variety of distances (some pretty far) so I was thinking "huh, this looks harder!" when I realized that the entire target is considered a "good hit"---and the target is HUGE.

I had wanted to shoot all the versions of qualification courses for all the armed forces, but the "surprise targets at random distances" isn't something I can cobble up in my backyard, so I'm going to have to pass on the Army qual.  :)

...wait, just noticed there is an "alternate" course of fire, and I think THAT one I can do...

Standard course:  http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-23-35/appa.htm
Alternate course:  http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-23-35/appb.htm
Target:  http://www.letargets.com/content/m9-tag-us-dept-defense-m9-25-meter-e-type-silhouette-target.asp

....might have to do that one next.  :)  (Hm, the night and NBC conditions might be tough, but....)
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Offline SemperFiGuy

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Re: Marine Pistol Qualification: "Expert"
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2016, 09:03:05 AM »
My USMC workstation happened to be RangeCo, ServiceBn, CpPendleton, CA.

We ran all the rifle and pistol ranges, infiltration courses, combat towns, yada yada.

All the NCOs' and Officers shirts were dripping w/various levels of rifle and pistol marksmanship medals.   The medals had ladder bars hanging down in long rows for each qualification level.   These folks had all been selected and placed in one unit for their expertise in shooting.   They made up the squads that we sent to Camp Perry and other USMC, interservice, NRA, and civilian competitions.

The Colt M1911 .45ACP was the usual basis for their alibis on a bad shooting day.

They would come into the shooting shack, pull out their .45, shake it vigorously to show how badly it clanked and rattled, and then proclaim:

"You can't hit a G-D thing with this G-D weapon...................."


I've always wondered what alibi was used when the services changed over to the Beretta M9 handgun.




sfg
« Last Edit: August 18, 2016, 02:23:14 PM by SemperFiGuy »
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Offline Mudinyeri

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Re: Marine Pistol Qualification: "Expert"
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2016, 09:38:04 AM »
In the Army, I qualified on pretty much everything that went bang or boom.  But then, I ignored the advice to "never volunteer" and volunteered for pretty much every class and TDY offered.  As a result, I got to do some pretty cool/fun stuff - extended pistol qualification and testing was a part of that cool stuff. 

Thomas, I suspect that, yes, many current and former members of the military have quite a bit of themselves invested in being known as experts with firearms - especially those that have carried firearms on a daily basis and run, perhaps, thousands of rounds downrange on the two-way range.  When a civilian - who they most likely assume has never taken incoming fire - suggests that they are not experts, it probably rankles a bit.

They're probably thinking a little bit along the lines of Mike Tyson's famous quotation: "Everybody has a plan until they get hit in the face."

Ken, I was among those who hated the 1911 and laid blame on it for a lack of accuracy in my initial handgun qualification.  I managed to qualify Expert on the basic qualification course with the 1911 but just barely.  I loved everything about the M9 except the initial double action trigger pull on the first round and the fact that you couldn't carry it cocked and locked like you could the 1911.  Beyond that, shooting the M9 was like driving a Ferrari after trying to run the same course in a dump truck.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2016, 09:41:52 AM by Mudinyeri »

Offline bullit

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Re: Marine Pistol Qualification: "Expert"
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2016, 12:46:21 PM »
My USMC workstation happened to be RangeCo, ServiceBn, CpPendleton, CA.

Didn't you and Maj Gen Pendleton go to MCRD together ?  ;)

Offline SemperFiGuy

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Re: Marine Pistol Qualification: "Expert"
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2016, 02:29:42 PM »
Quote
Didn't you and Maj Gen Pendleton go to MCRD together

Yes...........

But he was just a raw boot kid at the time.   Followed me around everywhere.   Couldn't get rid of him.

In desperation, shipped him off to OCS.

That finally worked.


sfg
BTW:   I taught Toby to shoot the M1911.   That's why he fired Expert.    You should see me on flintlocks.
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Offline Mudinyeri

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Re: Marine Pistol Qualification: "Expert"
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2016, 04:42:23 PM »
Yes...........

But he was just a raw boot kid at the time.   Followed me around everywhere.   Couldn't get rid of him.

In desperation, shipped him off to OCS.

That finally worked.


sfg
BTW:   I taught Toby to shoot the M1911.   That's why he fired Expert.    You should see me on flintlocks.

I think it helped that you were there when the first one rolled off the production line. :D

Offline JTH

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Re: Marine Pistol Qualification: "Expert"
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2016, 05:23:00 PM »
Thomas, I suspect that, yes, many current and former members of the military have quite a bit of themselves invested in being known as experts with firearms - especially those that have carried firearms on a daily basis and run, perhaps, thousands of rounds downrange on the two-way range.  When a civilian - who they most likely assume has never taken incoming fire - suggests that they are not experts, it probably rankles a bit.

Because they can't tell the difference between a pistol and a rifle?    That's what I always find interesting, actually.   Many time when I get the angry person yelling at me, it is due to a simple comment of "having been in the military doesn't make you a pistol expert" --- which is literally obviously factually true.  (The vast majority of people in military service don't shoot pistols.  Therefore, being in the military doesn't make you a pistol expert.)  Even someone who fits your description above has done almost all of it (outside of a few, select small military groups) with a rifle.  What does that have to do with pistol skills?

Of the people who have served in the military, a fairly small percentage have actually deployed.  Of the ones who have deployed, quite a few never did any shooting.  Of the ones who did shooting, not too many have run "thousands of rounds downrange on the two-way range" --- and they certainly didn't do it with a pistol.

In other words, the number of people who HAVE actually deployed, and shot thousands of rounds downrange on the two-way range isn't actually that big.  And you know what?  The few people I know who HAVE done that don't have the attitude that I normally get about my simple statement that "military service doesn't make you an expert with a pistol."

That attitude pretty much comes from people who HAVEN'T done those things. 

What I find interesting is that people who ARE expert pistol shooters, and either former or current military, uniformly agree with me.  (Matter of fact, most of them are quite a bit harsher than I am about it.  My favorite recent comment heard regarding the Army qualification is "Even worse is the Army pistol qual, it’s barely a sobriety test…")   It is actually more like I agree with them---I was actually originally surprised at how few military folks actually ever shoot a pistol.  I thought it was a part of everyone's normal basic training---but instead, it is exceedingly rare.  So it isn't a surprise that being in the military doesn't necessarily give you pistol skills.  What is surprising is that some military people think it does, even when they KNOW that most people in the military don't get any pistol training!

As for your comment about "carried a weapon on a daily basis" -- do they think that carrying it actually confers skill?  Granted, a lot of CCW permit holders seem to think something similar, but that doesn't actually make it true.  A friend of mine has deployed more than once, and as someone in a med unit, he always carries a pistol when outside of the hospital.  And yet....he doesn't think that because he's carried it a lot he's an expert with a pistol.

Quote
They're probably thinking a little bit along the lines of Mike Tyson's famous quotation: "Everybody has a plan until they get hit in the face."

So they are thinking about things that literally have nothing to do with the topic of discussion?  I'm not sure that is much justification for their ire.

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Offline Mudinyeri

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Re: Marine Pistol Qualification: "Expert"
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2016, 08:04:42 AM »
:shrug: Thomas, I tried to give you an insight into what might be going on in their minds.  Rather than trying to understand, you continue to rail on about how stupid, wrong or statistically challenged they are.  This probably has at least as much to do with their response to your statements as anything.

FWIW, I agree that military service doesn't immediately equate to "expert" pistol shooting skills.  However, having served myself, that message is probably received differently by other current or former members of our armed services than it is from a civilian.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2016, 08:11:31 AM by Mudinyeri »

Offline gsd

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Re: Marine Pistol Qualification: "Expert"
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2016, 01:11:01 PM »
:shrug: Thomas, I tried to give you an insight into what might be going on in their minds.  Rather than trying to understand, you continue to rail on about how stupid, wrong or statistically challenged they are.  This probably has at least as much to do with their response to your statements as anything.

FWIW, I agree that military service doesn't immediately equate to "expert" pistol shooting skills.  However, having served myself, that message is probably received differently by other current or former members of our armed services than it is from a civilian.

I agree with this. Most prior military I know (myself included) are only good with a pistol because we usually train above what was originally taught to us. My former stepfather (retired Army) used to say a pistol is for fighting to your rifle.(probably borrowed in some iteration from someone else). Pisol markmanship just isn't a focus in the military. Now, that may have changed, but I doubt it.

It could be that the "Military service=good shooter" connection comes from those who have served, BUT also trained to increase the skills, (people like Pat MacNamara, Steve Reichert, Tim Kennedy, Jim Gilliland to name a few). It's the nature of some civilians to lay broad generalizations on military service, i.e., "Oh, you're in the military? Do you know my friend Steve?"
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Offline JTH

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Re: Marine Pistol Qualification: "Expert"
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2016, 08:44:35 PM »
{various stuff}

I made a long, specific, point-by-point post, but upon reflection, it just isn't worth it.

Like always, Mud will add in comments about things not on topic, he'll take comments out of context and attack them for things not actually said, and he'll turn factual comments into emotional attacks and then castigate others other them...and overall, it just isn't worth it.

I mean, seriously?  "Rather than trying to understand, you continue to rail on about how stupid, wrong or statistically challenged they are.  This probably has at least as much to do with their response to your statements as anything." ----yes, because my reply to YOU indeed is why other people attack me for making my initial statement of "being in the military doesn't make you an expert with a pistol."

Sheesh.

Stated simply, Mud----your initial "reasons" for why people act that way are wrong, for the reasons I stated.  (Literally you can't possibly be correct.)  And my comments about people not being able to tell the difference between a rifle and a pistol are due to YOUR contention that this two-way range thing is why people act that way.  And since you want to take that as me attacking other people which is my fault and whatever.....

....okay.  Thanks for reminding why discussing anything with you is pretty useless, because you can't actually argue a topic.

So---never mind. 

Plenty happy to discuss with other people.  Talking with Mud is pretty much worthless on topics where he has an Opinion.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2016, 10:34:37 PM by jthhapkido »
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Offline JTH

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Re: Marine Pistol Qualification: "Expert"
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2016, 09:00:53 PM »
I agree with this. Most prior military I know (myself included) are only good with a pistol because we usually train above what was originally taught to us. My former stepfather (retired Army) used to say a pistol is for fighting to your rifle.(probably borrowed in some iteration from someone else). Pisol markmanship just isn't a focus in the military. Now, that may have changed, but I doubt it.

Doesn't seem to have changed, according to discussions I've had with a number of firearms trainers who are current and former military.

Like I've said elsewhere a number of times:  There are plenty of military folks who are good (or better than good!) shooters.  The fact that they were in the military isn't why, though, for almost all of them.  (Couple of specific small military groups excepted.)

Quote
It could be that the "Military service=good shooter" connection comes from those who have served, BUT also trained to increase the skills, (people like Pat MacNamara, Steve Reichert, Tim Kennedy, Jim Gilliland to name a few). It's the nature of some civilians to lay broad generalizations on military service, i.e., "Oh, you're in the military? Do you know my friend Steve?"

I think it is a combination of things, really.  People like action stories, and we want the heroes to be skilled and brave and strong and etc.  We WANT our law enforcement folks and military folks to be experts with weapons.  That, coupled with the strong institutional attitudes about skills that people in the military and law enforcement have about their own people, comes together to produce a pretty solid mythos.

I don't think it is just a civilian reaction to generalize---it is a human reaction to do so, particularly if part of that generalization is based on an attitude that is trained into the person (you are a soldier, you are expert, you are deadly, etc).  It all comes together from many places.

Interestingly enough, it seems to happen EVEN IF people know better.  For example, I'm pretty sure that several people here on this forum are Marines.  And we know that all Marines are rifleman, first and foremost.

Right?

And yet....I'd bet that those Marines ALSO know of several Marines they had to deal with when they were in that were horrible shots and wouldn't be someone you'd want watching your back. Many?  No, not at all.  But...I'd bet every single Marine could think of at least one.

They KNOW that all military folks aren't equal in skill, and that certainly all aren't experts.  But....at the same time the training about what it means to be a Marine, and the pride in being a Marine makes people react emotionally even when they already know better.

(I'm using "Marine" just as an example.  This is true for literally any job, service, or calling in which skills are taught, and in which an esprit de corps forms, such as law enforcement, the military branches, firefighters, correctional officers, and so on.  Part of that esprit de corp literally comes from the thought that merely being a member of the group means something special.)

Self-image and emotional needs create strong reactions. 

Like I said, what's always been interesting to me is how a simple statement of "being in the military doesn't make you an expert pistol shooter" creates such a strong reaction, even though the people in the military KNOW the statement is true, because they all know plenty of people in the military who aren't expert pistol shooters, even if they believe they personally are expert pistol shooters--and even if they believe that their military training MADE them expert pistol shooters!
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Offline SemperFiGuy

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Re: Marine Pistol Qualification: "Expert"
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2016, 09:16:53 PM »
Quote
I think it helped that you were there when the first one rolled off the production line.

If..........

You are speaking of the inimitable US M1 Garand Rifle, Caliber .30-06,

Then..............

You just happen to be exactly and entirely right on the money.


sfg
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