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AAllen:
I want to clear up a point that is an often misquoted item. It is not illegal to yell fire in a theater. You are responcible for the outcome of the act but the act is not illegal. Examples, there are plays (they take place in theaters) were a caricter on stage my yell fire as part of the play. If there is a fire in a theater and you are informing the audience it would be expected that a person would yell fire. But if you yell fire in a theater, when there is not one, and cause people to stampead out you would be guilty of multiple differing possible charges, depending on if anyone was injured by your act or not.
This is the outcome of 2 supreme court cases, the first the person was held guilty for their action and this is where the misquote often comes from. A year later there was another case where the supreme court changed the ruling to specify the speach is not what is illegal, it is the outcome.
To compare to firearms, it is not illegal to crry a firearm but the person carrying is resoncible for anything that may happen because of it (he pulls the gun to defend himself, negligent discharge ect.)
Mudinyeri:
I don't even know where to begin to reply ....
I've been accused of wanting to ban guns. Training has been characterized as punishment. We're splitting hairs between carrying a loaded gun and using it irresponsibly. I see arguments where the logical extension would result in the mentally deficient and those who've been diagnosed as mentally unstable carrying guns.
Let's see if we can find some areas of agreement and work from there.
1. Can we all agree that the Second Amendment ... and every other amendment of the first eight (the Enumerated Rights) have limitations by necessity since we do not live in a Utopian society?
2. Can we all agree that training is a good thing and not a punishment?
3. Can we all agree that, all else being equal, individuals with inadequate gun training and skills pose more of a danger to themselves and their fellow man than those who have adequate training and skills?
Let's start with that and see if we can find some common ground (even though I'm sure we all share more common ground than not).
AAllen:
Actually I have trouble with the concepts in the common ground.
1. The enumerated rights in the constitution are not limited; they are God given rights that all people have. Otherwise referred to as natural rights.
2. Yes training is a good thing, when it is my choice. When it is dictated by a government it is a punishment. If I force you to eat ice cream until you become ill that?s a bad thing even though ice cream is good.
3. What is adequate? I have also seen some very well trained people (police, military, and civilians) endanger their families and the public, so training does not always mean that the person has common sense.
DaveB:
I never saw the limitations, is there small print at the bottom that I missed?
My "training" started with my father over 45 years ago, the only formal training I ever had was 35 years ago in the Army, and that was just shooting at silhouettes. I had the right to buy guns before I was allowed to buy alcohol. The limitations you speak of are added on because the gun grabbers are doing anything they can to take away our God given rights. Because the majority of my training came from my father, does that not qualify me to carry a gun in public? You might just want me around when something bad starts to happen. Might surprise you that I can hit what I'm aiming at, without the formal training. If someone wants training, they should be free to get it whenever they want. I would love to, just can't afford it.
I do agree that training is a good thing, but it should be voluntary. The reason for the 2nd amendment is to keep this runaway government from removing our rights.
I think that the qualifying for a CCW is more than enough.
Mudinyeri:
--- Quote from: AAllen on June 27, 2010, 08:30:48 PM ---Actually I have trouble with the concepts in the common ground.
1. The enumerated rights in the constitution are not limited; they are God given rights that all people have. Otherwise referred to as natural rights.
2. Yes training is a good thing, when it is my choice. When it is dictated by a government it is a punishment. If I force you to eat ice cream until you become ill that?s a bad thing even though ice cream is good.
3. What is adequate? I have also seen some very well trained people (police, military, and civilians) endanger their families and the public, so training does not always mean that the person has common sense.
--- End quote ---
1. So, you don't follow any of the laws that have been established over the 200+ years since the amendments were passed?
2. Why is training a bad thing if someone else requires it? Is hunter safety training a bad thing?
3. We're not going to achieve perfection here. Let's not fool ourselves (or try to fool others) by suggestion that training and practice bring perfection. We're trying to improve people's skills and abilities so they know how and when to utilize guns.
DaveB, the limitations I'm talking about are not limited to the Second Amendment. Each of the amendments has limitations. Most of those limitations are for the good of society. Some of the limitations go beyond "for the good of society" and truly restrict the right(s) to a point where they cannot be freely exercised. That is where our responsibility to be politically active and vote comes into play. We are responsible (there's that annoying word again) to remove the lawmakers from office - the ones who've pushed through truly restrictive laws - and put into office lawmakers who are fair in their approach to balancing rights and responsibilities.
It seems obvious from the arguments I'm getting that none of you has ever been personally endangered by a person who was not qualified to be using the gun they were holding. When you have, as I have, it apparently changes your perspective.
Perhaps we will have to agree to disagree.
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