General Categories > Information Arsenal

Fighting from the ground

(1/2) > >>

sjwsti:
How many of you spend time working on what to do if (when..) you end up on the ground? In the following article Gabe relates many of the same conclusions I have come to in my own training. These are things you only learn by doing. At first slowly, then working up to full speed with contact from a willing partner. Oh, I can hear the excuses now: " I`m too old.., I`m too fat..., too slow..., that looks hard..., I`ll never need to know that.." Well I hope, for your sake you dont. A few weeks ago in Illinois I watched a 58 year old sworn Officer do an entire day of these types of drills, in the dirt and gravel. Didnt hear him complain once, even though he was obviously sore and fatigued. The following link is to the original article with photos. If anyone wants to discuss or has any specific drills or techniques relating to this, post up.

http://www.warriortalknews.com/2010/08/contact-shooting-with-a-pistol.html

CONTACT SHOOTING WITH A PISTOL

Most students of personal combat today have some understanding of ground fighting and the mechanics of taking down an adversary.  Its not a hard thing to learn, and anyone who has a little athletic ability and a partner to work some basic moves can develop some pretty serious skill sets in short order. Most shooters already have a disdain for physical combat of any sort, but bring up the notion of wrestling around on the ground with someone and you will probably be asked to leave.  Ignorance is bliss and few people want their bliss upset.
These blissful shooters may not like the idea of fighting on the ground, but ignoring the situation is as silly as pretending that knife assaults won?t happen either.  Any gun guys who think they are so fast and alert that they can never be taken down to the ground, please send me an email.  I have some Brazilian gents I?d like to introduce you to and I will bet you $1000 they will put you down before you can clear leather.
 I will begin by saying that I hate ground fighting.   I am forty-nine years old and hate rolling around on an asphalt surface getting my clothes ripped and my elbows and knees ground onto the concrete.  I hate it but I cannot ignore it.  With the rise in popularity of the UFC and the prevalence of Brazilian Ju Jitisu, the idea of fighting on the ground has become a reality and likelihood regardless of your exposure and training. Like it or not, the complete fighter must have an understanding of ground fighting as much as an understanding of knives and other things not associated with the sterile shooting range.
In my opinion, the most important thing when fighting on the ground is to find a way to get back up.  Unlike the sporting arena, you won't be facing one guy alone.  While you are putting some sort of arm bar or whatever on the one adversary, and that is taking for granted that you are better at this than he, his buddies will walk up behind you and stomp your brains out of your skull and into the gutter. The ground is NOT where you want to be in the real world, so avoid it.
 You can avoid it to a degree via footwork, escalation, and control of the angles and of distance.  These are hard things to teach in an article, but they are crucial aspects to learn.
Second, but just as important, is getting your weapon out and working.  Whether that weapon is a knife or a pistol, you want to deploy it as soon as tactically possible. This is no place for Less lethal options.  Going to the ground on the street in a real fight is a serious matter and potentially deadly event for you.  Feel free to take it hard and escalate accordingly.  If you can manage to get a pistol out, I suggest getting as many shots into your adversary's body as you can.  Hopefully, this will facilitate mission one which is to get back on your feet.
 The problem that we see come up all the time in our "force on force play time" is that when the muzzle of the pistol is jammed into the adversary, the weapon will not function.  The solution we came up with in training is to physically keep the weapon in battery and then fire the shots.  I know that this will be one of those controversial things and that people all over the internet will be arguing about the wisdom of this concept and perhaps about my very sanity.  So please read through the article before passing judgment.
Keeping the weapon in battery and in a firing condition can be done in a myriad of ways.   
 One answer that is often discussed is to simply carry a revolver as this is not susceptible to being ?disconnected? like a semi-auto.  While this is true, the revolver can be disabled in other ways just as likely in the body to body ground fight.  Moreover, the carry of an S&W 13 over a Glock 19, as one example, doubles your weight and cuts you ammunition payload in half.  The revolver is not a better weapon, simply a weapon with a different set of liabilities.
Back to the semi auto, one way to keep the weapon in battery is to simply block the slide into battery with your body as you physically press into the grounded adversary either in the guard or the mount.
Another way is to physically block the slide with your hand as you press it into the adversary's body.  There are several ways to do this either by blocking the slide with your palm, blocking it with your thumb, or by actually grasping the slide with your hand either forward or to the rear of the ejection port.  The one caveat would be to watch for those silly compensated pistols and avoid the gas vents.
 To lock the slide in place simply place your support side palm hard against the back of the slide.  While we are shooting into a piece of card board here, please remember that the end of the muzzle would be jammed into the adversary's body.
If only one hand is available, you can simply bring the back of the thumb up and lock the slide into place with it.  One hand is often needed to control the adversary so this may be the only option you have.
Finally, simply grabbing the slide and locking it in place is a fast and easy way to keep the pistol in battery in a grounded or clinch struggle.
 

We introduced this concept at our recent Zero To Five Feet class.  Take a serious look at this application.  As always, proceed with caution.


Posted by Gabe Suarez on 08/01/2010 at 14:50 in GUNFIGHTING

Dan W:
I have a feeling if I ever met Gabe I would really like him...but one question.

If I do have to use the technique of holding the slide into battery, then after the shot I am holding a gun with no round in the chamber...No? Then I will need to rack the slide for another shot.

I am assuming that this technique would prevent the slide from cycling.

sjwsti:
Correct, the techniques only purpose is to allow you to get off that one shot. Hopefully hurting the bad guy enough to allow room to move and fix your gun. Firing is prevented by the slide being pushed back out of battery due to someone literally being on top of you with the weapon in contact with their body.

The most common technique taught is if you are unable to fire you simply pull the gun back from the adversary slightly, allowing the slide to go back into battery allowing the pistol to fire and cycle. This is for when you dont have enough space to pull back.

I have experienced this in training while sparring on the ground with a gun. You will attempt to fire the gun several times before you realize it isnt working. Depending on how much space you have one of the above techniques should be employed.

I have also discussed this with Henk Iverson. They teach it to Special Forces as a sound suppressing technique. Push the muzzle hard into the bad guy, hold the action closed and fire. Apparently its very quiet.  >:D

- Shawn

20nickels:
This video is a great example of point blank firing with an auto.  "cop vs. ex-boxer"  long linky....
http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/cop-vs-ex-pro-boxer/c0738be4a0fd7fa2ebbfc0738be4a0fd7fa2ebbf-165024105640?q=cop%20vs%20boxer&FORM=VIRE1

Cop fires one shot to the torso.  Doesn't even get a reaction.

20nickels:
I would agree that this subject doesn't get near enough attention as 90% of fights hit the ground.  I cannot imagine a fight in which firearms are present would be any different.

A trick I saw yrs ago and incorporated into my draw is to place a stomp kick into the aggressor's hip/lower abdomen as they close in.  This will give you a split sec more to clear leather and of course only works if you are aware there's a threat.

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page