General Categories > Information Arsenal
Avoiding the gamer trap
Lorimor:
I'd like to get in on some good FoF training. I have been carefully tuning my Airsoft with a Sawzall and an anvil. I now have it spitting 6mm biodegradable BB's at just over 1800 fps. It's ready.
:)
JTH:
--- Quote from: Lorimor on August 02, 2011, 06:50:37 AM ---I'd like to get in on some good FoF training. I have been carefully tuning my Airsoft with a Sawzall and an anvil. I now have it spitting 6mm biodegradable BB's at just over 1800 fps. It's ready.
:)
--- End quote ---
Okay, note to self---if Lorimor ever comes to one of my classes, he HAS to use one of my AirSoft guns, not his. :)
sjwsti:
I find it fascinating how we can read the same thing and come to two different conclusions. But I think I can find some common ground here.
--- Quote from: jthhapkido on August 01, 2011, 09:58:08 PM --- You say that competition shooting will effectively get you killed. (Yes? ---that it will cause you to have poor tactics, and that you shouldn't do it.) He says that sport shooting has its place, "As long as a sport shooter does not CONFUSE sport and proper training. " He then says "If you use a red dot scoped, compensated 38 Super competition pistol and practice constantly with that equipment, neglecting your duty gun and holster, you might be in for a deadly surprize!" ---which is completely true. Unfortunately, it doesn't say that sport shooting will ingrain bad habit/tactics---it says that if you only practice with your competition race gun, you are in trouble. Which I completely agree with.
--- End quote ---
So we can agree that shooting competition by itself doesn't suffice for SD skills. But you cant ignore the first part of what he says
--- Quote ---Sport shooters need to know how the body reacts to a "survival adrenal dump" in a real life gunfight. When survival mode kicks in, your subconscious mind takes over the fight, meaning your body will react EXACTLY as it has been trained.
--- End quote ---
I believe that every time you pick up your gun you are training. You are feeding information to your brain. When you mix SD skills with competition skills how do you control what your subconscious will decide to use under stress ( Im sure we can agree that there is such a thing as muscle memory)?
Try looking at this from the perspective of the average shooter. The person who isn't an IPSC GM or SpecOps operator and hasnt been exposed to any form of high stress shooting. Realistically most gun owners will never have any type of training at all. Only a small percentage will seek out CCW permits and for most the training will stop there with the required minimum. Of this small number of serious armed civilians there is a handfull who will seek out advanced skills or ways to improve those skills (competition).
I believe, as does Mroz, that of this small number most will stop at the second stage of training. Go and talk with some of the B, C and D class shooters and I bet that most use matches as training for SD (we both agree this is bad).
Most of us are on limited budgets and cant afford to shoot competition at at high level and do enough repetition of SD skills to offset the poor tactics of competition. Most will choose to do one or the other out of necessity. So for the average shooter with a CCW permit who wants to be prepared to survive a violent attack, and doesn't have the time or the cash to do it all, were should they spend their limited time and money?
I think we can both agree that skipping the steel match and working some wounded shooter drills would be time better spent.
- Shawn
bullit:
There is a lot of "theory" and "opinion" in the above. I say this respectfully as I have my own. There is really no way to come to a "right" answer. I think "recommendation" is more the word to use. Statistically, most reported self defense shootings are by "average Joe/Jane" gun owner. Most have had no training other than learning how to operate a gun. A great example is the Armed Citizen column printed monthly in American Rifleman since the late 1950s. In fact, it is not possible (at least legally) to design a prospective study of "gamers" vs "tacticians" to prove this point. SD shootings are retrospective in nature. One then has to question how many shootings the "experts" have actually particpated in. How did they really react? How many were/are competitive shooters on the side? How many were not? Tough questions to get answers to. In May, I attended with a few other NFOA brethren, Rangemaster's Tactical Conference in Tulsa. With the utmost certainty, there were at least a handful I know who have been in gunfights as LEO and military. They were competing right along with the rest of the crowd even though they would be returning to the proverbial frying pan on Monday.
Having been a victim of violent crime, I did not respond near to the level I always thought I would. The important part was I survived. Lots of lessons learned, but I am not fooling myself that I will automatically react better the next time. I pray to God I do, but one never knows. That being said, I still PRACTICE, PRACTICE, and PRACTICE. I TRAIN, TRAIN, and TRAIN.
The late Jim Cirillo, of the famed New York stake out squads (17 gunfights with 11 confirmed kills) was an avid competition shooter. In fact, he credited his competition participation to how he handled the aforementioned shootings.
As an instructor myself, I do see some issues that "gaming" that can likley pose if the "flag goes up". Commonly I see guys press checking over and over. As I heard Rob Pincus say..."STOP THAT! Once you load your weapon, the bullets don't get up and walk away." Another example is number of shots fired i.e. "2 to the chest, 1 to the head"...then look over pistol at target. One can easily conclude where is could end up in reality. I am sure there are other examples one could come up with. In conclusion, I think this topic makes for good discussion, but one must be careful as presenting it as dogma. That is all for now...must get back to the Debt Ceiling crisis.
JTH:
--- Quote from: sjwsti on August 02, 2011, 10:19:06 AM ---I find it fascinating how we can read the same thing and come to two different conclusions. But I think I can find some common ground here.
[snip]
So we can agree that shooting competition by itself doesn't suffice for SD skills. But you cant ignore the first part of what he says
--- Quote ---Sport shooters need to know how the body reacts to a "survival adrenal dump" in a real life gunfight. When survival mode kicks in, your subconscious mind takes over the fight, meaning your body will react EXACTLY as it has been trained.
--- End quote ---
--- End quote ---
But that isn't the first part of what he says. The first part from Iverson says:
1) Sport shooting has its place
2) he comes from a sport shooting background
3) he did sport shooting throughout his police career
4) Sport shooting can teach a number of things.
AFTER that, he says you just can't afford to confuse sport shooting with SD training, and gives a specific example.
I don't see at all how that is in any way a warning to "avoid the gamer trap." Just not at all. As Mroz says, sport shooting can be used quite well to increase shooting skills.
--- Quote from: sjwsti ---I believe that every time you pick up your gun you are training. You are feeding information to your brain. When you mix SD skills with competition skills how do you control what your subconscious will decide to use under stress ( Im sure we can agree that there is such a thing as muscle memory)?
--- End quote ---
Hmm. So, you never shoot slow fire for group size? You never stand in the open and just shoot a target?
No, I don't agree that there is such a thing as muscle memory (one of my pet peeves, actually). There are certainly mental pathways we can ingrain as choices, but the concept of "muscle memory" is quite faulty. Drives me nuts when people use that term.
Anyway---I don't see "every time I pick up a gun as training." Just don't. While that may feed information to my brain, it just plain does not always do it in any way that is retained. Matter of fact, MOST of the time it isn't retained. (Which is why good, concentrated, sustained practice is difficult for many. The focus required for good solid retention is not easy.) Now, if every time someone picks up a gun, they are unsafe or stupid, then yes, over time those habits will be ingrained. However, every time I pick up a gun, I'm not training.
But, let's take some sport shooting training---specifically, some standard competition drills: quick and efficient draw to an accurate first shot. Practice for an effective sight picture on near shots compared to long shots. Quick efficient reloads. The ability to shoot accurately and immediately move. The ability to move to a point and be able to start shooting accurately immediately upon reaching that point. The ability to shoot accurately while moving. The ability to shoot weak-hand only, and strong-hand only.
These are all shooting skills. Certainly not defensive tactics. Do tell, how many of these shooting skills are in any way detrimental to SD tactics? They don't replace SD tactics, but they aren't supposed to. How will these "get in the way" of my SD tactics? Shouldn't they support them, so that any shooting I have to do will be unconsciously competent, so that I can spend my cognition on effective tactics? Isn't everything on that list of drills something that an SD-focused shooter should also be drilling?
--- Quote ---Try looking at this from the perspective of the average shooter. The person who isn't an IPSC GM or SpecOps operator and hasnt been exposed to any form of high stress shooting. Realistically most gun owners will never have any type of training at all. Only a small percentage will seek out CCW permits and for most the training will stop there with the required minimum. Of this small number of serious armed civilians there is a handfull who will seek out advanced skills or ways to improve those skills (competition).
I believe, as does Mroz, that of this small number most will stop at the second stage of training.
--- End quote ---
I agree that most shooters don't expose themselves to high stress shooting, that many don't undergo any professional training, and that small numbers of these will CCW. As part of that, I'll certainly agree that a small percentage of shooters try to find ways to improve their skills. (One of which, as you say, is competition---and so yes, I wish more people would go out and compete once in awhile. :) )
So, other than my parenthesis, above, we are in agreement thus far. But then you say:
--- Quote ---Go and talk with some of the B, C and D class shooters and I bet that most use matches as training for SD (we both agree this is bad).
--- End quote ---
And I don't agree with that at all. I think that most people use matches as fun shooting training--which is SD training only with respect to shooting skills, as opposed to SD tactics. I can't think of a single person I shoot with at ENGC who expects their USPSA match to help them tactically.
Hm---other than practice at remembering plans, reacting under stress, tracking maps in your head, and similar things. Useful for SD tactics, but aren't actual tactics themselves.
So no, I don't think most USPSA shooters think that way. It may be possible that IDPA shooters might think that, I don't know. If they do, that is unfortunate because it really, really doesn't, no matter how IDPA is advertised.
--- Quote ---Most of us are on limited budgets and cant afford to shoot competition at at high level and do enough repetition of SD skills to offset the poor tactics of competition.
--- End quote ---
Poor tactics of competition? Hm. If you mean IDPA, I have no argument. If you mean USPSA, that doesn't make sense, because as there are no SD tactics, they can't really be poor.
Most people won't shoot competition at a high level. Sure. Most people don't race cars at a high level either. Or shoot golf (boring!) at a high level. Or any other sport. This, however, doesn't mean that people can't play games for fun---in shooting, as in everything else.
You seem to think that (for example) practice of USPSA shooting skills (examples of which were listed above) somehow contains "tactics" that will need to be overwritten with good SD tactics. I disagree. I find that the shooting skills that I practice for USPSA make the shooting part comparatively easy when I do advanced-level SD work, which is all about tactics so that you can take the shot you need without getting killed. USPSA doesn't teach me tactics--so there isn't anything for me to re-train.
Mroz even SAYS that competitions are good level II training!
--- Quote --- Most will choose to do one or the other out of necessity. So for the average shooter with a CCW permit who wants to be prepared to survive a violent attack, and doesn't have the time or the cash to do it all, were should they spend their limited time and money?
I think we can both agree that skipping the steel match and working some wounded shooter drills would be time better spent.
--- End quote ---
I think---that the skills needed to succeed in a steel match involve no tactics at all, merely pure shooting skills. I see no reason to believe that the skill of being able to quickly engage targets with high accuracy is somehow a problem. You picked steel matches--and yet, out of most of the shooting sports, this is the one that most rewards pure shooting skills. Plenty of people shoot Steel with a production gun, in a standard hip holster, not fancy race guns. So---especially for steel matches, I think people should try them out. Give them a bit of stress, and find out how their draw speed and accuracy REALLY are, instead of hitting a pop can at their home range with their buddies.
I don't see the financial problem---most people who shoot competitions aren't high-level, nor do they spend hours and hour practicing for them. It is a fun game, so they go out, shoot the game, and have some fun. If, in your practice for SD, you don't have enough money to spend $15 to have a fun morning shooting a steel match once every two months, your life choices are going to be more of a problem for you than your shooting choices. (I mean the generic "you", not Shawn specifically.)
I will say that I think being able to shoot accurately and quickly in the first place is more important than wounded shooter drills. This isn't to say that people shouldn't also practice those---but first, be able to shoot quickly and accurately. One-handed gun manipulation is after that.
I also think that wounded shooter drills work a lot better if you can shoot one-handed, both strong and weak. Do you dive right in and try those? Or do you practice some accuracy first? Do you then put it on a clock, to give yourself some stress? Then work it into a small scenario? How is this different from the competition shooting skills I listed above?
And doesn't trying it out in a different venue, under different circumstances, to see if the shooting skills can hold up under light stress, make sense? If the shooting isn't there, the scenario training, while useful, is considerably less effective. So---put it in competition.
People have to be able to shoot. Competition is one way to give a different test of shooting skills. Here's something---take Steel Challenge, for example. Since there are no tactics involved (you stand there and shoot, that's it) ---isn't this an perfect example of something that would be excellent for Mroz's level two training? After all, once people hit Mroz's level III, it isn't as if they should stop practicing the level II material. Shooting skills still have to be improved, ingrained, and tested. Steel Challenge is pure shooting skill! SD shooters (who are really interested in improving) should definitely shoot one once in awhile, because a different type of stress, a new situation, and new points of comparison are very important for true SD training! So they get smoked by the guy with a race gun who practices steel challenge all day. So what? There are plenty of people in Production division to shoot against, to compare technique to, to discuss shooting skills with. Seriously, isn't that what we want out of our training?
Obviously we disagree here, and that's fine---but it doesn't change the fact that Iverson and Mroz, and many other people who are law enforcement and military trainers (like Ayoob, Langdon, and Rogers, who between them have literally trained more shooters than the both of us have ever met)---find no problem with competition shooting as long as, Iverson says, "As long as a sport shooter does not CONFUSE sport and proper [SD] training."
[Edited because I realized a sentence I wrote didn't say what I meant. Whoops.]
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version