I'm a noob and I want to know why this is a Class III

[y0diggity]

http://www.kygunco.com/products2.cfm/id/37155/name/lwrc-psd-5.56-nato-8

What makes that a Class III weapon?

Thanks in advance for your help!

[bkoenig]

The 8" barrel.  Anything under 16" with a shoulder stock is a short barreled rifle and subject to NFA.  And totally worth the $200 fun tax.

[y0diggity]

So what's required to buy one? Can I get one or do I need a special FFL license or something?

[bkoenig]

Fill out a Form 4 and send it off to the ATF with a $200 check.  Then wait 3-6 months.

[RobertH]

two ways to get the Form 4...  individual or trust.

individual means you get a CLEO to sign off, you get fingerprints taken and passport photo taken.

trust meeans you form a trust and skip the CLEO.

trust is faster and usually cheaper since the CLEO will most likely charge you for a background check and the finger prints.

there are also 5 categories of NFA, machineguns (MG), short barreled rifles (SBR), short barreled shotguns (SBS), destructive devices (DD) and any other weapons (AOW).  all are $200 transfer fee but AOW have a $200 manufacture fee but only a $5 transfer fee.

[y0diggity]

two ways to get the Form 4...  individual or trust.

individual means you get a CLEO to sign off, you get fingerprints taken and passport photo taken.

trust meeans you form a trust and skip the CLEO.

trust is faster and usually cheaper since the CLEO will most likely charge you for a background check and the finger prints.

there are also 5 categories of NFA, machineguns (MG), short barreled rifles (SBR), short barreled shotguns (SBS), destructive devices (DD) and any other weapons (AOW).  all are $200 transfer fee but AOW have a $200 manufacture fee but only a $5 transfer fee.

And how do I "form a trust"?

[RobertH]

you can consult a lawyer make you one, just don't do Quicken, i've heard bad things from them.  from what i remember, there's nothing special.  its just a revocable living trust.  now only the persons listed in the trust may have in their possesion the said Class III items, so if you want it to be a family trust i believe you must have all family members listed in the trust.

i would name it "My Last Name Living Trust" or something like that.  the normal one is "First Last Name Revocable Living Trust."  trust me, its really long to engrave.  and i'm the only one listed in the trust, so my wife, immediate family or future kids cannot be in possession of said items.  but if i die, my wife would get them all.

scour the ar15.com Armory section.  they have a lot of FAQ's on there.  read those and ask if you have more questions.

[dark 45]

i am also a noob at this, you know the whole cali boy thing. but what do you mean by engraving? you have to have your trust etched onto the firearm and where do you put it?

[bkoenig]

You only have to engrave the trust/owners name if you are the one who manufactured it.  In that case you use a Form 1 instead.  I built my SBR from a stripped lower so it is on a Form 1 and has my trust name engraved.  If you buy an already assembled item you use a Form 4 and don't engrave.

[CitizenClark]

And how do I "form a trust"?

You can draft a trust yourself, you can use an electronically generated trust, etc., and these may in fact result in valid trusts. However, even if they are valid, they may not provide the trustee (you or your successor) with adequate guidance to avoid an NFA violation (in terms of conditions that must be met before beneficiaries take under the trust, etc.). Seeing as how $250k and 10 years worth of freedom are on the line, I think the prudent choice is to eat the one-time expense of having a legal expert draft the trust for you.

I'm an attorney, but I paid David Goldman in Florida (http://www.guntrustlawyer.com) to consult on my NFA trust. After doing a considerable amount of research on my own I decided that the peace of mind derived from having a valid trust that is specifically crafted to deal with Title II firearms was worth the expense.

[RobertH]

like BK said, engraving is only for Form 1, which you manufacture an NFA weapon (not MG).  i have a stripped lower getting engraved right now with NFOA's logo.  ill post pics as soon as i get it back.  now if only the ATF would hurry up too.....

[y0diggity]

So let me throw back what I've gotten from the conversation here so far - Once again noting that I'm a COMPLETE noob at the class III stuff.

I can either go and do all the fingerprinting, background check, etc again like I did for my CCW and then send in some money and a picture and they'll tell me in a while that I can go ahead and buy the gun I want.

OR

I can have a lawyer draft a "trust" document which apparently alleviates any legal issues in the even that I die and my family is suddenly "in posession" of a class II firearm.

This doesn't seem like it can be all the details, though. I would think that either way, the former would need to be done and that, out of prudence, the latter SHOULD be done.

Can someone please clarify this? I don't want to sound needy, but this is a sticky business and I want to get an accurate idea of what a guy has to go through, from the time he decides to buy one to the time he takes it home to go play with it.

Thanks. You guys are awesome with all your help.

[bkoenig]

That's basically it.  You still need to get the stamp and send in the Form 4 if you go the trust route, but the trust has the advantage of bypassing the CLEO signoff if they refuse to sign like here in Lancaster County.  Plus, since my wife is a trustee she can also use my NFA items, and when I finally go to the big shooting range in the sky it details what will happen with my stuff.  When my daughter turns 18 I'll probably amend my trust to make her a trustee as well.  If you do a trust the Form 4 is filled out under the trust's name, not you.

[dark 45]

You only have to engrave the trust/owners name if you are the one who manufactured it.  In that case you use a Form 1 instead.  I built my SBR from a stripped lower so it is on a Form 1 and has my trust name engraved.  If you buy an already assembled item you use a Form 4 and don't engrave.

so you can change a "regular" long gun you already have or buy one for the purpose of turning into a sbr/sbs?

[bkoenig]

Correct.  In that case you are considered the manufacturer and you fill out a Form 1.

[RobertH]

Correct.  In that case you are considered the manufacturer and you fill out a Form 1.

and pay $200.  of course.   and you MUST WAIT until the forms come back approved before you can start your modifications or compling of NFA parts.  allowing someone to hold on to your short barrel or whatever is fine to, as long as they won't be in violation of any NFA rules.