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Author Topic: carry a loaded Glock with one in the chamber?  (Read 14294 times)

Offline unfy

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Re: carry a loaded Glock with one in the chamber?
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2012, 06:41:45 PM »
"... because people treat them with respect. I once had a pistol fired into the ground 2 feet from me because the shooter thought the chamber was empty, so it would be safe to dry-fire."

To get away from aggressiveness, uhhhh someone forgot one of the several #1 rules of any firearm, it's ALWAYS loaded, and should ALWAYS be pointed in a safe direction :(.

This would just be carelessness and deserve a good thump on the head :(.
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Offline HuskerXDM

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Re: carry a loaded Glock with one in the chamber?
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2012, 09:16:11 PM »
A&H my link to the article was only to facilitate discussion.  Carry with one in the chamber.  Don't carry with one in the chamber.  I don't care.  I choose to carry with one in the chamber.  When I was new to CC I didn't carry one in the chamber, now I do. 

« Last Edit: January 03, 2012, 10:10:18 PM by HuskerXDM »
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Offline DanClrk51

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Re: carry a loaded Glock with one in the chamber?
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2012, 07:47:08 AM »
A&H & Shawn:

As far as the scenario with the guy shooting himself in the heat of the moment because he didn't keep his finger off the trigger until he was ready to shoot:

You don't need to take an advanced training class to master keeping your finger off the trigger. That's something simple that you yourself can practice. And its not hard. Safe gun handling is a state of mind and just a matter of practice/repetition.

.....I'm thinking an overwhelming majority of those folks mentioned in the Armed Citizen section of the NRA magazine had any advanced training let alone any training beyond their hunter safety course or own practice on the range. If determined enough, an individual does not need any training from professionals and could train him/herself by reading their gun manual, gun safety literature, gun safety videos etc. There are plenty of resources available from which one can train oneself to become a master without shelling out hundreds of dollars on advanced gun classes. The average person can get by on taking one basic class or a concealed carry class and then training/practicing on their own.

Offline sjwsti

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Re: carry a loaded Glock with one in the chamber?
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2012, 08:40:41 AM »
DanClrk51,

I dont completely disagree. Someone that decides to put in the extra time to seek out references and videos and then regularly go to the range to practice can certainly attain a good level of proficiency.

I did just that years ago when I was shooting IPSC and IDPA. I never had any lessons and got pretty good through hard work and regular practice.

But I dont believe anyone can "master" any discipline by themselves. You just cant know everything. And there are things you will get from a professional instructor that you just cant get from a book or video. 

The first shooting class I ever attended was put on by Gabe Suarez. My buddy and I honestly didn't think we would learn much but we had heard that this guy was a little crazy and he was teaching things that you couldn't get at the regular shooting schools. By the end of two days I had learned and done drills that I had never seen in a book, or ever even considered that I might need to know or do. It was one of the significant events in my life that changed the way I was training and the gear I was using.

So that couple of hundred dollars ended up being a good investment for me. I have yet to have a student complain that they were ripped off and didn't learn anything. In fact I'm usually told that they feel  they got more than they were expecting. So, for them, it was also a good investment.

You are also right about the Armed Citizen, the vast majority of those accounts are from gun owners successfully defending themselves with little to no training.

But were is the section that shows the failures? Do you think they will feature the CCW holder beaten nearly to death in the other thread I posted? The fact is that there are many stories just like that one were armed citizens make wrong choices, or are unsuccessfull in using their weapon at all. You just have to look for them. Don't think that just because it was easy for some that it will be easy for you.

- Shawn
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Offline armed and humorous

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Re: carry a loaded Glock with one in the chamber?
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2012, 10:14:33 AM »
Shawn (and others):

I've been around long enough, and paid special attentiion to most anything I came across having to do with guns, to know that most experts (self-proclaimed or genuine) will tell you over and over again that even well-trained people have a difficult time when the situation becomes real.  These experts will talk endlessly about the need to practice, practice, practice, until it's no longer your brain telling you what to do, but muscle memory (or something along those lines).  We see examples of trained individuals failing to perform effectively all the time.  I saw a video from a police car mounted camera of a traffic stop where two officers were trying to arrest a guy.  The guy smacked one of the officers and then took off on foot.  The two officers both emptied their pistols shooting at the guy and failed to hit him even once.  They started shooting when he was only a few feet away from them.  I'm sure you've all seen or heard about the LEO who was demonstating in front of a class of school children and shot himself in the foot.  The stories go on and on.

Now, I realize many of these trained individuals have probably not had the degree of training that some of you here have had.  Still, they've certainly had more training than the average Joe Blow.

It strikes me odd that so many here want the right to keep and bear arms for everyone, uninfringed, and yet they turn around and indicate that no one should be carrying a gun unless they are basically trained to the point of perfection.

Maybe, Shawn, you're not trying to imply that at all, but it sort of sounds that way.

I recently watched some videos (probably from a link off this forum) of people set up in a college lecture situation.  One of the students was armed with a paint ball gun, and at some point in the lecture an armed man came in and started shooting (paint balls).  This was repeated several times with different students, and none of them got off a shot, or at least were unable to shoot the attacker.  At least one of these students was very familiar with guns and considered a good marksman, blah, blah, blah.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that if we all believe in the second amendment, we can't be infringing on it by saying you have to be expertly trained before you should be allowed to carry.  Hopefully, anyone carrying knows his/her weapon well enough that they don't shoot anyone by accident.  If they are able to fend off an attacker, so much the better.   If they can't, too bad for them, but I don't think we can take away their right to defend themselves just because they're not very good at it.
Gun related issues are, by nature, deadly serious.  Still, you have to maintain a sense of humor about them.

Offline sjwsti

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Re: carry a loaded Glock with one in the chamber?
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2012, 01:08:18 PM »
Shawn (and others):
Now, I realize many of these trained individuals have probably not had the degree of training that some of you here have had.  Still, they've certainly had more training than the average Joe Blow.

All training is not equal. Especially in the Law Enforcement community. To use them as an example I have taught and trained with a number of SWAT teams in eastern Ne as well as Officers from Missouri, Illinois, Ohio and Iowa. I have trained with LEOs that are very skilled and motivated and also LEOs that display terrible fundamentals and tactics that will most likely get them killed if they ever had to fight for their life. And the credit, or blame, can be laid at the feet of their training officers.

For example, I was helping to teach a Strike Tactical Level 1-5 class in Illinois last summer. There was a young Officer who worked for Chicago PD that was falling way short of the accuracy requirement to qualify. After some one on one we determined that he had absolutely no idea how to properly align the sights on his weapon. Once we explained proper sight alignment and front sight focus he did well. He was supposedly trained, but in reality his training was so poor as to border on criminal. And he had been working the streets of Chicago for more than a year.

The flip side would be Omaha SWAT. They are absolutely one of the best trained and skilled teams in the country. Recently one of their Officers was forced to shoot a sword wielding maniac who was about to stab an infant. 3 shots, 3 hits. Two above the collar bones. When I talked to him about the experience he said it was mindset and training that made it seem almost easy.

So I would have to disagree that you cant know how you will react in a life or death situation. I have spoken to too many people who have been there, done that, who did well and attributed it to their training.

It strikes me odd that so many here want the right to keep and bear arms for everyone, infringed, and yet they turn around and indicate that no one should be carrying a gun unless they are basically trained to the point of perfection.

Maybe, Shawn, you're not trying to imply that at all, but it sort of sounds that way.

I don't believe that any training should be required by the govt to have a gun for protection. But if you are really carrying one for self defense and not just carrying to say that you are. It is in your best interest to have some training if you really want to have the best chance of surviving a life or death encounter.

I recently watched some videos (probably from a link off this forum) of people set up in a college lecture situation.  One of the students was armed with a paint ball gun, and at some point in the lecture an armed man came in and started shooting (paint balls).  This was repeated several times with different students, and none of them got off a shot, or at least were unable to shoot the attacker.  At least one of these students was very familiar with guns and considered a good marksman, blah, blah, blah.

I saw the same thing, and have read that it was a set up for TV. The shooter was told before hand exactly who was armed and were they were sitting. Not a realistic portrayal at all.

I have had the opportunity to participate in a drill similar to that one. We had aprox 20 students spread out through a multi room single story bldg. The Instructors simulated a terrorist attack using a number of different tactics and multiple shooters. Only a few students were armed at a time and no one but the Instructors knew who that was. The results of our simulation were quite different than the one staged for TV. As long as you weren't in the first room when they came in blazing away (if you were in that room you got shot) In every scenario an armed student was able to get rounds on the terrorist.

We are all products of our individual experiences. I have had the opportunity to train with some very experienced and dangerous men who have had to fight for their lives on a number of occasions. When someone like that says training is important, I listen. Being a Medic in north Omaha for over a decade I have treated more than a few victims of gunshots, stabbings and assaults and seen them breathe their last breath right in front of me. Its one of the reasons I train so hard because I never want that to be me, or anyone I know lying there.

Sorry for the length of this. Probably time to put it to bed.

- Shawn
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Offline armed and humorous

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Re: carry a loaded Glock with one in the chamber?
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2012, 03:04:44 PM »
Shawn:

I don't disagree with the value of training, especially if it is done correctly and frequently.  I'm also sure you know a lot more about it than I do.  I didn't know much about the videos I mentioned, but I suspected that the "attackers" were aware of who in the classroom was carrying.  At least it seemed they took out the armed student quite quickly rather than it being a random shooting or simple a "spray" of bullets that happened to get the armed one.  I'm sure there are many well-trained people who react as they were trained, even under the worst of circumstances, and get the job done.  I'm not disputing that at all.

For what it's worth, the people you talk about who were well-trained and good at what they did, were mostly the cream of the crop.  There is only so much cream in the milk bucket, and it all goes to the top.  Most of the bucket is the rest of society, who don't fare nearly so well.

I don't know much about you, but from what I've read of your comments, I'd say you are involved professionally in this type of thing, and you have committed yourself to becoming the best you can be at it.  For that I commend you, and I appreciate the value of your experience and your willingness to share it on the forum.  Just keep in mind that for every one like you, there are hundreds, or thousands, or more, who are committed to something else.  Perhaps they don't have the time or money to do what you have done.  It doesn't mean they don't deserve to carry a firearm for self-defense, nor does it preclude them from doing it successfully under the right circumstances (keep the armed citizen stories in mind).  Yes, you're right, there may be many more cases of armed citizens who failed to successfully defend themselves, and it could be due to the lack of training.

Okay, I'm probably starting to ramble now.  You're right.  We should put this to bed (not that I'm trying to get in the last word :)).
Gun related issues are, by nature, deadly serious.  Still, you have to maintain a sense of humor about them.

Offline DanClrk51

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Re: carry a loaded Glock with one in the chamber?
« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2012, 03:13:53 AM »
I recently watched some videos (probably from a link off this forum) of people set up in a college lecture situation.  One of the students was armed with a paint ball gun, and at some point in the lecture an armed man came in and started shooting (paint balls).  This was repeated several times with different students, and none of them got off a shot, or at least were unable to shoot the attacker.  At least one of these students was very familiar with guns and considered a good marksman, blah, blah, blah.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that if we all believe in the second amendment, we can't be infringing on it by saying you have to be expertly trained before you should be allowed to carry.  Hopefully, anyone carrying knows his/her weapon well enough that they don't shoot anyone by accident.  If they are able to fend off an attacker, so much the better.   If they can't, too bad for them, but I don't think we can take away their right to defend themselves just because they're not very good at it.

While agree with you on that 2nd paragraph I don't think Shawn is arguing that your right to carry be taken away either. I think he is just trying to get people better prepared and to constantly strive to get better and better and to prepare for more and more situations. Having said that I also don't think that because you don't seek out advanced training its going to doom you to failure if and when a self defense situation arises.

In regards to that college video: That "experiment" was a total fraud, set up to fail from the beginning. What else could you expect from ABC news? I'm not going to go into detail of why since the NRA and numerous other groups have already exposed that "study" for what it was.

Offline armed and humorous

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Re: carry a loaded Glock with one in the chamber?
« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2012, 10:08:47 AM »
Dan (and Shawn):

I didn't really think Shawn meant people without adequate training shouldn't be allowed to carry, and I agree that the more training a person has, the better off we all are.  However, even though most of us realize that, it doesn't mean we're going to go out and spend every spare minute of our time and all our spare cash to get more training.  I had to drop my membership at the gun range last year because I had more important things to purchase with what money I still had.  That's not to say, defending one's self isn't important.  But, eating, having a roof over my head, and money for gas outweigh the slim chance that I'll ever need to defend myself with a gun.

As for the videos, I didn't remember exactly how I came across them in the first place, but as I said, I didn't necessarily buy the argument they were making, at least not from the setup they created.
Gun related issues are, by nature, deadly serious.  Still, you have to maintain a sense of humor about them.

Offline HuskerXDM

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Re: carry a loaded Glock with one in the chamber?
« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2012, 08:35:02 PM »
Do you Glock-carriers keep it cocked loaded while you're carrying? I'm curious about your experiences since its a fairly passive safety system on it.

Thanks!

So back to the OP's question... you can see there is some debate on this.... do what you feel is best for you.  But don't count on having enough time to rack the slide in a SD situation. 
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Offline kingtut

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Re: carry a loaded Glock with one in the chamber?
« Reply #30 on: February 03, 2012, 02:18:22 AM »
All failures except failure of the primer to ignite the round happen during the cycling of the slide (failure to feed, failure to extract, etc.)

It would be nice to have at least one round ready to function ahead of time.

Shakey hands under extreme stress don't need an extra step to perform.

Offline skydve76

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Re: carry a loaded Glock with one in the chamber?
« Reply #31 on: February 03, 2012, 01:08:03 PM »
A glock and derivatives thereof are designed to be carried safely in a good holster when chambered.  It cant fire by being bumped, dropped, thrown.  You must pull the tigger pretty hard to get it to fire.

Now a 1911 which I carry and is a combat pistol, safety in terms of carrying is a 2nd consideration in the design of that gun.  That gun can and will fire if handled improperly and requires more knowledge to do so. 

Depending on the situation, I may chamber or not.  If sitting in a classroom for hours (not public school type) I usually leave it unchambered for piece of mind.  Walking around its chambered. 

Make sure you have a good holster, no nylon.  Get a blackhawk for OWB or don hume/kholster for IWB.  A good holster will cost at least $50 for that gun.  Stay away from the holsters at guns unlimited.

« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 01:10:32 PM by skydve76 »

Offline OnTheFly

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Re: carry a loaded Glock with one in the chamber?
« Reply #32 on: February 04, 2012, 05:59:56 PM »
Dan (and Shawn):

I didn't really think Shawn meant people without adequate training shouldn't be allowed to carry, and I agree that the more training a person has, the better off we all are.  However, even though most of us realize that, it doesn't mean we're going to go out and spend every spare minute of our time and all our spare cash to get more training.  I had to drop my membership at the gun range last year because I had more important things to purchase with what money I still had.  That's not to say, defending one's self isn't important.  But, eating, having a roof over my head, and money for gas outweigh the slim chance that I'll ever need to defend myself with a gun.

As for the videos, I didn't remember exactly how I came across them in the first place, but as I said, I didn't necessarily buy the argument they were making, at least not from the setup they created.

I thought this was a healthy conversation so I started another post so as not to detract from the OP's question.

What minimum level of training should a CHP holder strive for?

Fly
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Offline sparky

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Re: carry a loaded Glock with one in the chamber?
« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2012, 10:16:53 AM »


  Get a blackhawk for OWB or don hume/kholster for IWB.  A good holster will cost at least $50 for that gun. 


I hope your not saying that these are the only safe holster's to carry a 1911 in. 
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Offline JimP

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Re: carry a loaded Glock with one in the chamber?
« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2012, 10:55:46 AM »
Quote
I recently watched some videos (probably from a link off this forum) of people set up in a college lecture situation.  One of the students was armed with a paint ball gun, and at some point in the lecture an armed man came in and started shooting (paint balls).  This was repeated several times with different students, and none of them got off a shot, or at least were unable to shoot the attacker.  At least one of these students was very familiar with guns and considered a good marksman, blah, blah, blah.


I saw the same thing, and noted that the "test" was rigged: the "armed man"/active shooter was a police officer that KNEW there was a student in the classroom with a concealed paintball gun,  and that he should shoot the guy that did not duck and run or freeze.......  and his gun was already out, while the CCW guy had to draw.  I doubt anybody could pass that test..... put it on even footing, by not telling the the active shooter that there might be an adversary present, and it'd turn out completerly differently.....

The bottom line there is, by prohibiting guns to targets, you get guaranteed victims.  By giving them a gun, you give them a chance, and good one, provided they have the element of surprise,  regardless of their skill level. 

Quote
Now a 1911 which I carry and is a combat pistol, safety in terms of carrying is a 2nd consideration in the design of that gun.  That gun can and will fire if handled improperly and requires more knowledge to do so. 

ANY gun can and will fire (when not intended!) if handled negligently..... but prohibiting Carry because someone might screw up/perform less than perfectly is akin to prohibiting cars because someone might get hurt or exceed the speed limit.

You should get training, yes, but everybody should be responsible for themselves.  Making the State responsible for things always ends badly for free people, eventually, in that it makes them dependant upon the State...... and the State does not have the individual's well being uppermost in it's collective mind.





The Right to Keep and BEAR Arms is enshrined explicitly in both our State and Federal Constitutions, yet most of us are afraid to actually excercise that Right, for very good reason: there is a good chance of being arrested........ and  THAT is a damned shame.  III.

Offline skydve76

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Re: carry a loaded Glock with one in the chamber?
« Reply #35 on: February 06, 2012, 12:31:49 PM »
Sparky:  No, I just made a couple of suggestions.  There are other holsters as well for sure. 

Jim P:  My post really wast not about training but the OP's original question.  I feel a glock is ok to carry chambered for the reasons I specified.  A 1911 is also safe to carried chamber but requires more care.  Easier trigger pull,  decocking requires more care.

All in all these guns are both very safe, but the 1911 does require more care to carry properly.  A glock is a great carry gun for anyone with a brain.  A 1911, not so much, need a smarter brain.


Offline JimP

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Re: carry a loaded Glock with one in the chamber?
« Reply #36 on: February 08, 2012, 03:52:38 PM »
Quote
Easier trigger pull(on a 1911),

A shorter, crisper one,yes, agreed.

Quote
.....  decocking requires more care.


What is this "decocking" of which you speak?  It sounds grotesque..... and/or painful!

 ;D

Seriously: Cocked and Locked Carry.  It can't be made simpler.  There is no decocking.  Only shooting or unloading.

The Right to Keep and BEAR Arms is enshrined explicitly in both our State and Federal Constitutions, yet most of us are afraid to actually excercise that Right, for very good reason: there is a good chance of being arrested........ and  THAT is a damned shame.  III.

Offline skydve76

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Re: carry a loaded Glock with one in the chamber?
« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2012, 09:27:35 AM »
I mean to ease the hammer back down without setting off the round.

Not to be confused with what a wife or girlfriend does after marriage and/or divorce.

Offline David Hineline

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Re: carry a loaded Glock with one in the chamber?
« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2012, 10:27:17 PM »
If you are too stupid to put gas in your tank where it can be used then you are too stupid to own a car.
Machinegun owners blow thier load with one pull of the trigger

Offline y0diggity

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Re: carry a loaded Glock with one in the chamber?
« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2012, 10:29:01 PM »
If you are too stupid to put gas in your tank where it can be used then you are too stupid to own a car.

Not sure I follow you there? Are you saying that because I don't carry with a round in the chamber that I'm too stupid to own a firearm? Just getting some clarity here.
That which does not kill us was not trained properly.