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Author Topic: Defending a neighbors property?  (Read 1473 times)

Offline Ivars

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Defending a neighbors property?
« on: September 11, 2012, 06:21:51 PM »
I would risk my life before risking the possibility of incarceration.  I'm not going to do that.

A situation happened a couple of weeks ago where I was sitting on my deck drinking beer when I noticed two guys checking my neighbors doors.  I confronted them, they ran.  I stayed on my property and called the police. They did show up, but did not seem to care.  "Can you give a description?"  Yah, you know how that goes.

My question is whether or not I would be breaking the law to brandish a firearm while slightly intoxicated.  I would be on my property, but I would not be protecting my own.  I am not really worried about my safety, I can take care of myself, but a gun would be intimidating and I could possibly hold them until the police got there.

I am not Chuck B. and I don't even like the neighbors that much.  I just don't like that kind of thing that close to my house.  But if it means I go to jail, they can have the neighbors stuff.

What do you guys think?

Offline bk09

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Re: Defending a neighbors property?
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2012, 06:42:45 PM »
Call the cops instead. If they meant no harm to you I think you can get assault with a deadly weapon for threatening them. I would have a gun with me from within my house while looking out the window while calling the police. Best bet is to avoid conflict all together. Chris Z does a good job telling his pupils to avoid conflict and resolving it in the safest way possible.

Offline Dan W

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Re: Defending a neighbors property?
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2012, 06:52:13 PM »
I have been in contact with several of my neighbors about keeping an eye out for crime and actually do have keys for a few homes as well as official permission to enter and keep the  homes secure.

That being said, I do not drink at all, so the alcohol thing is not an issue for me, but I still would never brandish a gun to intimidate a criminal in this scenario, and they would never know I was armed until deadly force was required on my part.

I am also not inclined to try and arrest/hold anyone for the police as I have no training in that area and would likely get myself killed
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Offline RobertH

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Re: Defending a neighbors property?
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2012, 07:16:03 PM »
i would call the cops and not get involved.  if a break in does occur, hopefully they have insurance.  i'm kind of with Dan W, if you don't have the training you could get yourself (or someone else) hurt or killed, then you might be liable for their doctor's bills.  basically, call the cops, its their job.  just do your best to help the authorities with descriptions, etc.
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Offline cckyle

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Re: Defending a neighbors property?
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2012, 12:34:15 AM »
Were the neighbors home at the time?
Honestly, sounds like the beginning of a Trayvon Martin case.  Think of how much more flack or possible charges Zimmerman may have gotten had he been under the influence that day.  In Nebraska at least if you brandish a firearm it better be because you or someone around you is in imminent danger of bodily harm or death.  As I understand if you shoot someone running out of your house with your tv you will be on trial.  Lets say someone breaks into your house in the middle of the night, you find them with there arms in the air surrendering with no weapon, they turn to run away and you shoot them you will likely be on trial.  When I took my CCW class the instructor said, "if your sleeping at night and you wake up to someone breaking into your house, you are suppose to grab your gun, huddle in the corner, call the police, and wait there(unless you have a child in another room that may be in danger).
To me seeing a couple of guys checking doors so you brandish a firearm, especially while intoxicated, sounds like a very bad idea.  Granted they were likely up to no good as they did run away when you confronted them, but you can't assume they were up to no good just because they walk around a house and check some doors.  Example:  I have a friend who, when we make plans to go shooting or hang out, says to just come over at whatever time and walk in the house.  At times he forgets to leave the door unlocked.  If a neighbor saw me "checking doors" which I do when the usual door is locked, and decided to come over and point a gun at me and tell me not to move, if I was fast enough he/she likely would find themselves looking down a barrel as well.  Either outcome to follow is not a good outcome.
Then you add in the I can hold them until the police come.  There are a lot of different scenarios that could result.  They could run away or just leave (at which point you can't use lethal force), or they could come at you and you would be forced to use lethal force.  The police have to prove that they were doing something wrong.  So if all they do is walk around the house and you say they check a couple doors, they really haven't done anything that bad...yet.  So if you are able to hold them there until the police arrive, you have now used the threat of lethal force to force a couple of guys who walked around your neighbors house and checked some doors.  I could see charges of kidnapping or false imprisonment on your part, unless they could link them to some other crime that had occurred and depending on what officers show up and what kind of mood they are in. 
To try to "hold" someone until the police arrive is a bad idea.  If the perp(s) weren't really stupid, they would know they could/would just walk/run away.  You couldn't stop them and you could not shoot them.  When I was younger I was held at gunpoint by a farmer who I had unknowingly trespassed on his property.  When the cops arrived they warned him not to be brandishing a firearm in an unwarranted situation, and simply told me to leave and not come back.     

IMO, if you are under the influence and see this happening, A. call the police and stay in your house B. call the neighbors, warn them, and still stay in your house
If you were not under the influence I think you have 2 options, both start with calling the police.
A. Call the police and stay in your house, if you do this it may be possible (still unlikely though) that the police may arrive in time to see/catch the perps, where as if you run them off they are not going to catch them. 
B.  Arm yourself (concealed), and politely ask them, "what are you guys doing here" "what business do you have here" or something along those lines.  Then if they do have a reason to be there they can explain this to you and you/they can make sure everything is ok.  If they are up to no good they will likely run away which is what happened in your case.  Or if they have really bad intentions they may draw a weapon or come at you in which case you would be justified to use deadly force. 

Bottom line though:  Alcohol+Firearm+confrontation+brandishing = very bad outcome a lot of the time
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 12:39:39 AM by cckyle »

Offline JTH

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Re: Defending a neighbors property?
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2012, 03:49:50 PM »
My question is whether or not I would be breaking the law to brandish a firearm while slightly intoxicated.  I would be on my property, but I would not be protecting my own.  I am not really worried about my safety, I can take care of myself, but a gun would be intimidating and I could possibly hold them until the police got there.

Other people have already commented regarding alcohol, other people's property, putting yourself into a situation in which you aren't already a part, using lethal force in defense of someone else's property.....so I'll pick something else, and that is "holding someone at gunpoint."  (Yes, I know, someone already did but I'd already typed this out so darn it, I'm going to post it!)

Hold them?

How?  This is actually incredibly hard to do. 

First off, if they simply turn around and walk off, what are you going to do?  Shoot them?  For walking away?  That would be jail time for you.

Secondly, how far away are you?  If you are staying on your own property, how much of a scary "don't move" order can you project across 30 yards of space (or whatever distance it is)?  Are you going to move from your property to your neighbors?  (Thus, in the eyes of the law/court, deliberately forcing a lethal force confrontation since you brought your gun?)

Third---TRY to keep your concentration on something for more than 60 seconds at a time.  Try it.  Are you going to keep the gun pointed at them the whole time?  Have you held a gun on point for 60 seconds? 

Anyone who has ever tried to do this will tell you that you simply canNOT hold someone "at gunpoint" for very long before you start having problems. 

So, what's the police response time in your area?  How long are you going to have to "hold" them?

...to sum up:  No.  Don't try to hold people at your neighbor's place at gunpoint until the police show up.  At best, they'll ignore it and walk off.  At worst, either you'll go to to jail (because you shot someone) or you'll get shot (because you got close to them, lost concentration and there was a fight).

I don't see single positive outcome for even trying.
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Offline DaveB

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Re: Defending a neighbors property?
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2012, 11:39:20 PM »
Protecting property isn't a reason to pull a gun, no lives are in danger.

Offline HuskerXDM

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Re: Defending a neighbors property?
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2012, 06:52:14 AM »
http://nebraskalegislature.gov/laws/statutes.php?statute=28-1411

Unless the person is trying to commit arson, or another crime against the property that would reasonably result in death or serious bodily harm to your neighbor... be a good witness, call the police.  Scroll toward the bottom (section 6) of 28-1411 for the section on use of deadly force.  That would be applicable if you were to pull out a gun. 
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Offline DaveB

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Re: Defending a neighbors property?
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2012, 12:09:28 PM »
Guess we'll get all of our questions answered, including shooting a warning shot into the air.

http://www.nebraska.tv/story/19518833/man-holds-suspects-at-gunpoint-during-attempted-burg

In the late night hours of September 9th the Furnas County Sheriff's Office received a report of an attempted burglary at the Long Branch Saloon in Oxford.

The owner's boyfriend, Tom Hellner, made contact with the two suspects and held them at gunpoint until law enforcement arrived about 20 minutes later.

"I grabbed my shorts, my flip-flops and my nine-millimeter," said Hellner of his actions when he heard someone was breaking into his girlfriend's business in the middle of the night.

When asked if he was scared during the incident Hellner said he was not and went on to say that he made conversation with the two suspects as he held them at gunpoint.

When asked if he ever imagined that he would have to use his gun when he purchased it, Hellner said "Yes."

It has been confirmed that both suspects were also involved in stealing a pick-up truck from Beaver City. An arrest warrant has been written and law enforcement was awaiting a judge's signature at the time this article was written.

Offline Ronvandyn

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Re: Defending a neighbors property?
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2012, 06:37:11 PM »
I have had the training to intervene back in my employment history, and I still wouldn't.  Best to be a good witness and phone for the one's who are actually charged with dealing with criminals. 

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Offline Ivars

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Re: Defending a neighbors property?
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2012, 06:46:00 PM »
I appreciate all of the input.  I feel better now that I believe I did the right thing even though it seemed like too little at the time.

The story was the abridged version though as not to bore anyone.  Since it seems there is some interest, I will elaborate a little.  I was not armed at any time during this.

These individuals obviously did not belong there and the neighbors had seen them before and were worried.  They had asked me to watch out for them.  They had returned home a week before and found them on the property.  They suspected that they lived on the street behind us.  They filed a report.

The night this happened, the couple had left together, but left their kids with a sitter.  I talked to the sitter just before dark as she took the kids inside.  After the confrontation, my wife called the police while I went to their door.  I had to knock repeatedly as she was hiding and probably thought I was one of the intruders.  I made myself visible to the front window and she finally answered the door.  I told her that we had the police on the way and everything was OK.

The police came and I gave a statement.  The officer asked me if they looked Sudanese.  I said maybe, but I could not identify them, it was dark and they were wearing jeans and T-shirts.  Nothing identifiable.  I could have taken a picture and it still would not have helped.  He suspected a couple of guys he had made contact with before.

My original question to you all was whether or not to try and hold them since the police cannot arrest someone on a vague description.  I guess that is not an option.  What else can you do?  It always seems like the law is on the side of the criminals.

Thank you for all of your time and effort responding to my questions.