Don't mess with an old man. He'll just shoot you.

[greg58]

I think the 2 thugs are lucky he wasn't packing a 10mm or 45 acp!!
My hat is off to this brave fellow who took a stand, he refused to be the victim.
I will not try to "armchair quarterback" his actions since it all happened so quickly.
Greg

[JimP]

I think the 2 thugs are lucky he wasn't packing a 10mm or 45 acp!!

And he is lucky they did not return fire effectively, or stick around after getting ambushed..... he fired his 6, and they did not stick around.... If that was  an LCP, he likely was standing at the door with one round left in his gun......

My hat is off to this brave fellow who took a stand, he refused to be the victim.

Mine, as well, but I still think something can be learned from this.

I think this serves as a reminder that:

1- It's a pistol, therefore underpowered.  A .380 makes this doubly true. A tiny, lo cap gun might be enough, but I don't want to be standing at the door with one tiny bullet left in the gun like that.

2- Surprise is a "combat multiplier", and a swift, though imperfect attack on an unprepared enemy is often superior to a deliberate, text-book perfect attack on a prepared enemy, particularly when the enemy has a numbers and/or firepower superiority.  Action beats reaction.

I told myself I was going to stay out of this... BUT, I have to say this...   The guy DID something! 

I've watched that clip quite a few times and don't see the criticism.   Yeah, it might have cost him his life to go on the offensive, but if he hadn't others might have died.  Who knows what these guys would have done as worked up as they were?  If we wait for the 'perfect' time to react it usually doesn't happen, it just gets worse.  I guess he could have ducked under a table and hoped he or anyone didn't get hurt but I also bet he'd have gone home with a bitter taste in his mouth. 

It's a sad day when we call heroic actions 'foolish'.

Agreed.

 

[sjwsti]

If anyone thinks its "heroic" to charge into a gun muzzle, guns blazing and even sacrifice yourself for a roomfull of sheep, be my guest. Internet gun forums worldwide will herald your sacrifice.

I don't think I have been overly critical by simply pointing out that if any of us ended up in a similar situation, that there might be another way to do it, that lessens the risk of personal injury. Ive seen too many people permanently disabled and killed from gunshot wounds (thats a sad day...) that I plan on doing everything possible to avoid it while simultaneously doing what I can to stop the threat.

The use of cover and lateral movement aren't "advanced" skills. IMO their as basic as sight alignment/trigger squeeze. This particular video seemed like a good reminder (to me anyway) to not neglect working those basic tactics. Sorry if that seemed too critical of our good guy.

Ive been doing this long enough to know that what happens in a real confrontation wont look like what you do in a training environment. You do your best, falling back onto how you have, or haven't, prepared. It will never be "perfect" , but why not strive for that when we train or practice?

We should be able to look at this video objectively and take some lessons from it. I have.

- Shawn

 


 

[OnTheFly]

Shawn,

I agree.  We should strive for the smart tactical response.  Hopefully, in the very off chance we would find ourselves having to use our gun for defense, the training will be almost autonomic.  However, our actual performance will likely only marginally resemble our training.  I am bettering that your reaction, considering your passion for training, will be a much better example of what you should do.  I can only hope that I would do the smart thing in such a situation.

Fly

[whatsit]

As a Check Airman for a passenger carrying aviation company, I review accidents, incidents, and mistakes that never develop into the first two items.  What we hope to glean from studying these events, is a better insight into the training or policies that will reinforce good habits should a pilot end up in one of these situations. 

As several have said here, this guy probably should have done the opposite of what he did.  And that information may help the rest of us as we contemplate what we would do in a similar situation.  It is easy to pick a person's performance apart, but you won't know what you will do until the time arises.  Those pilots who scoff at others for not doing the right thing are called armchair pilots.  Sometimes their evaluations are spot on and other times they are just blowing hot air to try and impress the world.  Having been in an accident myself, I refrain from throwing stones.  For my event, even though I performed as I trained, the outcome was still less than desirable.   This ultimately resulted in many armchair pilots across the state making erroneous assumptions about what I screwed up.

With that said, training, training, and then training some more will help to ingrain the desired automatic responses in a high pressure situation.  However, in the civilian world, who has the time to be that vigilant with their firearms/SD training?  Jobs, family, and other high priority items get in the way.  There are a few here who have made it their side job and passion.  Kudos to them, but that is not a realistic expectation for most of us.

Could we all do a little dry fire or practice some close quarters skills backed up with an occasional course instead of sitting down at the TV with a bag of Cheetos?  Probably, but that is about the best that most of us will be able to achieve.

Fly

I would be very interested to hear from the trainers and tactics guys that teach courses -- or even those that have taken a lot of courses.

Do you or have you ever taught (or taken) a course based on scenarios observed in videos like the one in the OP? For instance, you might have your students sit with their back to the door and try to duplicate the events in this video (two criminals, lots of innocents moving around, limited time, drawing from concealed & sitting position, etc, etc).

Another one might be to have your student stand in line with a bunch of innocents and have a BG run into the "store" with a gun. See the Walgreens video from Omaha or any number of armed robbery attempts floating around Youtube.

Anyway, I'm just wondering if anyone has a "real world" class that you can use to train yourself in "real world" situations like this. And yes, I know situational awareness and not sitting with your back to the door is probably a good place to start, but we all slip up and bad stuff happens, sometimes.

[OnTheFly]

I would be very interested to hear from the trainers and tactics guys that teach courses -- or even those that have taken a lot of courses.

You just did.   

Shawn (a.k.a., "sjwsti") does a LOT of teaching and training.

Fly

[SemperFiGuy]

whatsit  [and whomever else might be interested....]

Shawn Whittington (sjwsti on this forum) is an EMS/EMT professional for OPD, including their SWAT team.

He--among all of us--sees blood in the streets as part of his everyday job.    [Worse that ever happens to me is maybe a student falls asleep in class at the university.]

Shawn's self defense and tactical classes are among the best around the Omaha area.   His training on anti-knife defense and on shooting from supine position alone were worth what I paid for his several classes.   Plus how not to shoot yourself during a close-up confrontation.

So--check with Shawn.   Take all his classes that you can.....They'll save your butt in a bad situation.   They are chockfull of life-saving techniques.

And then I'd recommend Chris Zeeb's Legal Aspects of Lethal Force.    Superb class, as well.

sfg

[sjwsti]

I cant thank you guys enough for the endorsement. It means a lot. 

I would be very interested to hear from the trainers and tactics guys that teach courses -- or even those that have taken a lot of courses.

Anyway, I'm just wondering if anyone has a "real world" class that you can use to train yourself in "real world" situations like this. 

I believe that there are several Instructors on here that incorporate FOF drills into their classes. All of them would be worthwhile to attend.

I have attended FOF classes with Suarez International, including their Active Shooter/Terrorist Interdiction course, were they simulated terrorist attacks on the entire class inside a structure (to explain all I learned there would take more space than we have). Strike Tactical Solutions Level 6 class is an all day FOF test of what we learned in the previous 5 levels, and was the most challenging array of classes I have ever done. I have also assisted Strike Tactical with running FOF drills for their LEO Instructor Enhancement course. I act as a role player for DCS every chance I get making their annual active shooter training as challenging as I possibly can (who wouldnt want to spend an entire day shooting at cops and get thanked for it later). I along with several other knuckleheads do this stuff when we can on our own. We use actual situations like the one above as inspiration for drills all the time. I have posted some videos of our "training" sessions on this forum if you are ever bored and need some cheap entertainment.

I cant emphasize how important this type of training is. This is were you put your skills practiced on the range to the real test. And you find out very quickly what does and doesn't work full speed, against a live opponent, all while experiencing the very real physical effects of stress.

This type of training isn't for everyone. You have to leave your ego at the door, cause it will take a beating. But that is how we learn. If I end up doing something stupid, so be it. I want to expose any holes in my tactics so I can try to fix them before I have to use them on the street.

In the past I have tried scheduling a FOF gunfighting class at The Bullet Hole but got little interest. And the few people who were interested didn't have the necessary equipment so it never happened.

In the Advanced Pistol Level 3 class I do at The Bullet Hole we put each student through two realistic high stress FOF scenarios as the final test of the 3 levels. And everyone always wants more.

At 88 Tactical, were I also teach, we are currently working toward scheduling a number of FOF classes. They are looking at purchasing UMT conversions and marking cartridges. This will give us a level of realism that few can match. I will be sure to keep everyone posted as to how this is coming along. 

- Shawn

[DanClrk51]

I like stories like this but I do want to ask?  Why did he not get in trouble for shooting at them as they were obviously fleeing the scene?

Because they were still holding onto their guns and thus the threat had not yet passed. This is how the police are trained and this is how ccw folks are trained: You keep on shooting until the bad guy either drops his weapon or he drops to the floor.

Just imagine if he had stopped shooting while they were fleeing and then decided to swing around and start shooting back. In those milliseconds you don't take chances.

[DanClrk51]

Another one might be to have your student stand in line with a bunch of innocents and have a BG run into the "store" with a gun. See the Walgreens video from Omaha or any number of armed robbery attempts floating around Youtube.

There's a Walgreens video from the Omaha shooting available? Didn't know this....link please!

[whatsit]

There's a Walgreens video from the Omaha shooting available? Didn't know this....link please!

HM... The only one I can find now is an interview with the CHP holder and his attorney. Was the security video never released or leaked? I thought it was out there somewhere. My apologies.

On another note, thanks for the replies. I'm new to force-on-force training and hope to take a class in the near future.

[greg58]

As Jim P stated.
"2- Surprise is a "combat multiplier", and a swift, though imperfect attack on an unprepared enemy is often superior to a deliberate, text-book perfect attack on a prepared enemy, particularly when the enemy has a numbers and/or firepower superiority.  Action beats reaction."


This is so true, certianly the old guy saw his oportunity and took action.
For having that courage I salute him, as many have pointed out his tactics probably are not the best/safest.
But I for one can't criticize him, probably because I don't know how I would react in a similar situation.
Greg

[bkoenig]

Finally got a chance to watch this video.  One observation I would make is that it didn't appear there was much in the way of cover that the good guy could have taken advantage of.  There didn't seem to be a lot there other than computers.  I'm definitely no expert, but I wonder if his reaction in this case might have been the best course - just take the fight to them with extreme aggression.