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Author Topic: Don't mess with an old man. He'll just shoot you.  (Read 3582 times)

Offline Lorimor

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"It is better to avoid than to run; better to run than to de-escalate; better to de-escalate than to fight; better to fight than to die. The very essence of self-defense is a thin list of things that might get you out alive when you are already screwed." – Rory Miller

Offline sjwsti

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Re: Don't mess with an old man. He'll just shoot you.
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2012, 11:23:05 AM »
Good for him!! Also looks like he was lucky they didn't decide to shoot back. No attempt to use any available cover and why close the distance initially against an armed bad guy? Other than shooting he didn't do much to avoid getting shot. These are common mistakes we see in FOF training regularly. I have a number of videos of FOF scenarios that look just like this, but the BG shoots back, most often striking the student a number of times. They are thinking too much about shooting and not enough about not getting shot. Glad it worked out for him.

- Shawn
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Offline Lorimor

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Re: Don't mess with an old man. He'll just shoot you.
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2012, 11:29:57 AM »
Yeah, I have to agree.  His tactics absolutely suck.  People tend to shoot you because you let them see you.  Still, he took the fight to them and in this case, it ended well. 

The first order of business in any fight is not to get hurt. 
"It is better to avoid than to run; better to run than to de-escalate; better to de-escalate than to fight; better to fight than to die. The very essence of self-defense is a thin list of things that might get you out alive when you are already screwed." – Rory Miller

Offline bk09

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Re: Don't mess with an old man. He'll just shoot you.
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2012, 02:37:10 PM »
I just saw this on another site and came to post it here but you beat me to it lol. Lucky he isn't getting charged for shooting after they were already turned and running out the door. Got my adrenaline pumping just watching it, he lucked out when the nearest threat turned his back allowing him to draw.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2012, 02:40:48 PM by bradkoll »

Offline bigmountainskiercfg

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Re: Don't mess with an old man. He'll just shoot you.
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2012, 04:21:59 PM »
I like stories like this but I do want to ask?  Why did he not get in trouble for shooting at them as they were obviously fleeing the scene?

Offline JimP

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Re: Don't mess with an old man. He'll just shoot you.
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2012, 10:02:47 PM »
Hooray for the Old Guy!..... now we need to see about taking up a collection to get him a serious caliber and some training!

Mindset, Skills, and Hardware.  He has the most important one in spades.
The Right to Keep and BEAR Arms is enshrined explicitly in both our State and Federal Constitutions, yet most of us are afraid to actually excercise that Right, for very good reason: there is a good chance of being arrested........ and  THAT is a damned shame.  III.

Offline JimP

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Re: Don't mess with an old man. He'll just shoot you.
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2012, 10:21:39 PM »
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No attempt to use any available cover

He did at the end, after the perps went out the door, he moved to the left to get behind the door frame.

Quote
......and why close the distance initially against an armed bad guy?

Sometimes, the best defense is a rapid offense.  The perp's back was turned, and he seized upon that opportunity.  Timely "Good Enough" is vastly superior to perfect execution one second too late.

Your FoF excercises assume both sides want to win a gunfight that they know is going to happen.  These guys were not expecting a gunfight.  Our Hero got inside their OODA loop.

Armed robbers just want the money, and may or may not want to eliminate witnesses. They don't want to get shot.  Failing that, they don't want to get killed.  In a suprise attack from behind, running like hell was probably their best, and most likely, option.
The Right to Keep and BEAR Arms is enshrined explicitly in both our State and Federal Constitutions, yet most of us are afraid to actually excercise that Right, for very good reason: there is a good chance of being arrested........ and  THAT is a damned shame.  III.

Offline 66bigblock

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Re: Don't mess with an old man. He'll just shoot you.
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2012, 11:29:49 PM »
"internet cafe" in Florida is codeword for online gambling parlor.  USUALLY filled with lots and lots of old people.  These two guys were basically raiding the nursing home looking for easy targets. 


too bad all they got was a good scare...

66bb
I carry a gun because a cop is too heavy.  I carry a lot of ammo because I cant run very fast.

Offline David Hineline

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Re: Don't mess with an old man. He'll just shoot you.
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2012, 11:45:22 PM »
I wonder if they can post bond with their EBT cards.
Machinegun owners blow thier load with one pull of the trigger

Offline sjwsti

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Re: Don't mess with an old man. He'll just shoot you.
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2012, 09:25:47 AM »
 
Armed robbers just want the money, and may or may not want to eliminate witnesses. They don't want to get shot.  Failing that, they don't want to get killed.  In a suprise attack from behind, running like hell was probably their best, and most likely, option.

Those are a lot of assumptions. To quote Col. Grossman "Hope isn't a strategy", wishfull thinking isn't a tactic.

I for one will expect that if someone is threatening me with a firearm they will shoot it (fear of death, serious bodily injury..). Either intentionally or unintentionally in my direction once I resist. If available,  I will use movement, cover and distance to my advantage. The old guys forward movement in this instance was foolish and gained him nothing. There certainly are circumstances that would favor closing the distance but not this time. Just because he wasn't hurt, and this particular BG didn't want to fight, doesn't validate his poor response.

Your FoF exercises assume both sides want to win a gunfight that they know is going to happen.  These guys were not expecting a gunfight.  Our Hero got inside their OODA loop.

You are right, the students have a pretty good idea that they will be shot at. And yet some don't use available cover or even abandon cover to get closer and shoot. Once we finish applying antiseptic to their welts and do it again, suddenly the use of cover, distance and lateral movement is suddenly a really good idea.

Self defense is more than just being aggressive and shooting. Ive got plenty of videos of good guys getting killed under very similar circumstances as this guy because a different bad guy showed up.

- Shawn
"It's not what you know that will get you into trouble; it's what you know that isn't true"

www.88tactical.com

Offline bullit

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Re: Don't mess with an old man. He'll just shoot you.
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2012, 10:14:10 AM »
My two cents after reading the  responses on this and other forums......  I don't fault the guy in anything he did having not been in his shoes.  Having been a victim of a violent assault, I can tell you all that goes on in your mind is SURVIVING.  Too many times the "tactics" are picked apart by those who have NOT been there and NOT done that.  There are multiple theories, OPINIONS, etc, etc on how to respond or what should have occured and on and on.....and I respect such.
Too many times we've (at least I have) read account after account of "trained" LEOS (dash cam videos), military (Audie Murphy, SGT York) and Spec Warfare operators who did what came "naturally" and solved the problem vice all the tactics they likely learned.  I offer the Walgreen's shooting in Omaha as more evidence.  I am NOT discounting training as I have spent untold hours and money garnering much for my self (and will continue to do so).  However,  I submit it may all fly out the window when the flag goes up.  This SEVENTY PLUS obviously physically limited old man solved the problem.  I can only hope I could respond as cool and collected as he did.  Yes, we can "learn" from his response, but I say take caution in over analyzing.  As far as shooting the exiting bad guys Florida statute provides for "use of deadly force on an unarmed robber, to stop its imminent commission, and escape or perfection of the robbery is considered part of the forcible felony of robbery"  I'm out.....
« Last Edit: July 18, 2012, 11:35:34 AM by bullit »

Offline Lorimor

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Re: Don't mess with an old man. He'll just shoot you.
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2012, 10:57:45 AM »
My two cents after reading the  responses on this and other forums......  I don't fault the guy in anything he did having not been in his shoe.  Having been a victim of a violent assault, I can tell you all that goes on in your mind is SURVIVING.  Too many times the "tactics" are picked apart by those who have NOT been there and NOT done that.  There are multiple theories, OPINIONS, etc, etc on how to respond or what should have occured and on an on.....and I respect such.
Too many times we've (at least I have) read account after account of "trained" LEOS (dash cam videos), military (Audie Murphy, SGT York) and Spec Warfare operators who did what came "naturally" and solved the problem vice all the tactics they likely learned.  I offer the Walgreen's shooting in Omaha as more evidence.  I am NOT discounting training as I have spent untold hours and money garnering much for my self (and will continued to do so).  However,  I submit it may all fly out the window when the flag goes up.  This SEVENTY PLUS obviously physically limited old man solved the problem.  I can only hope I could respond as cool and collected as he did.  Yes, we can "learn" from his response, but I say take caution in over analyzing.  As far as shooting the exiting bad guys Florida statute provides for "use of deadly force on an unarmed robber, to stop its imminent commission, and escape or perfection of the robbery is considered part of the forcible felony of robbery"  I'm out.....

You're right of course.  No one knows for certain how they'll react in a situation like this.  It's easy to MMQB this guy. 

I just hope I'm up and around at 71, let alone having the ability to take on two armed "tough guys."
"It is better to avoid than to run; better to run than to de-escalate; better to de-escalate than to fight; better to fight than to die. The very essence of self-defense is a thin list of things that might get you out alive when you are already screwed." – Rory Miller

Offline bullit

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Re: Don't mess with an old man. He'll just shoot you.
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2012, 11:33:12 AM »
And here Lorimor I thought you were already 71 being on the Kitty Hawk and all......  GO NAVY...BEAT ARMY !!!

Offline OnTheFly

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Re: Don't mess with an old man. He'll just shoot you.
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2012, 12:38:42 PM »
As a Check Airman for a passenger carrying aviation company, I review accidents, incidents, and mistakes that never develop into the first two items.  What we hope to glean from studying these events, is a better insight into the training or policies that will reinforce good habits should a pilot end up in one of these situations. 

As several have said here, this guy probably should have done the opposite of what he did.  And that information may help the rest of us as we contemplate what we would do in a similar situation.  It is easy to pick a person's performance apart, but you won't know what you will do until the time arises.  Those pilots who scoff at others for not doing the right thing are called armchair pilots.  Sometimes their evaluations are spot on and other times they are just blowing hot air to try and impress the world.  Having been in an accident myself, I refrain from throwing stones.  For my event, even though I performed as I trained, the outcome was still less than desirable.   This ultimately resulted in many armchair pilots across the state making erroneous assumptions about what I screwed up.

With that said, training, training, and then training some more will help to ingrain the desired automatic responses in a high pressure situation.  However, in the civilian world, who has the time to be that vigilant with their firearms/SD training?  Jobs, family, and other high priority items get in the way.  There are a few here who have made it their side job and passion.  Kudos to them, but that is not a realistic expectation for most of us.

Could we all do a little dry fire or practice some close quarters skills backed up with an occasional course instead of sitting down at the TV with a bag of Cheetos?  Probably, but that is about the best that most of us will be able to achieve.

Fly
Si vis pacem, para bellum

Offline Waltherfan

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Re: Don't mess with an old man. He'll just shoot you.
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2012, 03:25:20 PM »
I can see a reason to close the distance in this instance. He appears to be using a P3AT or LCP. Not the most accurate firearms on the market under ideal conditions. Add stress and that accuracy can become abysmal. By closing, he increases his odds of a hit and reduces the chance of missing the BGs and hitting bystanders.
Yes, it also increases the odds of getting hit with return fire but as others have mentioned, a lot of these low lifes are looking for sheep and will soil their pants at the appearance of a sheep dog. That doesn't mean it will always work that way of course.

Offline Lorimor

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Re: Don't mess with an old man. He'll just shoot you.
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2012, 04:17:46 PM »
And here Lorimor I thought you were already 71 being on the Kitty Hawk and all......  GO NAVY...BEAT ARMY !!!

:) I just look 71.  :)  (Actually I was on one of the tin cans that would plane guard for the Kitty Hawk now n' then.)
"It is better to avoid than to run; better to run than to de-escalate; better to de-escalate than to fight; better to fight than to die. The very essence of self-defense is a thin list of things that might get you out alive when you are already screwed." – Rory Miller

Offline JimP

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Re: Don't mess with an old man. He'll just shoot you.
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2012, 08:53:58 PM »
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too bad all they got was a good scare...

Not so.  The story said, both were shot, and,  "..... Henderson was still in the Hospital being treated for gunshot wounds."

Quote
I can see a reason to close the distance in this instance. He appears to be using a P3AT or LCP. Not the most accurate firearms on the market under ideal conditions. Add stress and that accuracy can become abysmal. By closing, he increases his odds of a hit and reduces the chance of missing the BGs and hitting bystanders.

This.

I watched again and Our Hero approaches the BG, who's back is turned, in a crouch, and shoots only when the BG sees him coming.  I'd bet he'd have kept coming till he could stick it in his ear if the BG had not turned around.

This is also why I would not consider Carrying one of these pocket .380's: I don't want to have to sneak up on a gunman to get into effective range...... just because most self defense situations arise at arm's length distances, and only require 3 shots, does not mean you won't need to shoot further than that, or need more than 6 (likely all Our Hero had) when the flag flies.....
The Right to Keep and BEAR Arms is enshrined explicitly in both our State and Federal Constitutions, yet most of us are afraid to actually excercise that Right, for very good reason: there is a good chance of being arrested........ and  THAT is a damned shame.  III.

Offline sidearm1

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Re: Don't mess with an old man. He'll just shoot you.
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2012, 09:41:37 PM »
Walt Rausch had a very interesting article in one of the gun magazines. He took skilled people and ran them through an alley where they were attacked.  1st run was with paper targets.  They challenged, sought cover and used the shots sparingly.  The 2nd run was a force on force scenario in the same alley.  He found that all of the range protocols went out the door, and the people doing the shooting, both good guys and bad, just simply started running and shooting as fast as they could without worrying about round count.

Did the old guy to the perfect tactical thing that a trained operator (remember when this was the person that answered the phone) would do?  No, but was he successfull.  Yes.  You overcome your obstacles, you react and you win.  Cheat to win, be aggressive take the bad guys by surprise, do what is necessary.  The real streets are not someones square range.  Talk to gunfight survivors (there are several coming back from overseas) and see how clinical tactics aren't always perfect. :)

Offline cckyle

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Re: Don't mess with an old man. He'll just shoot you.
« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2012, 03:10:18 AM »
To me it looks like the old man waited until the perp's back was to him, closed to engage, and then fired one off when the perp began turning towards him.  It looked like the old man didn't have much of an option in getting further away or taking cover.  Looked like the best strategy to me up to that point.  I think after seeing their reaction (running), he knew or figured that he was now on the offense.   

Offline metaldoc

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Re: Don't mess with an old man. He'll just shoot you.
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2012, 08:53:17 AM »
I told myself I was going to stay out of this... BUT, I have to say this...   The guy DID something! 

I've watched that clip quite a few times and don't see the criticism.   Yeah, it might have cost him his life to go on the offensive, but if he hadn't others might have died.  Who knows what these guys would have done as worked up as they were?  If we wait for the 'perfect' time to react it usually doesn't happen, it just gets worse.  I guess he could have ducked under a table and hoped he or anyone didn't get hurt but I also bet he'd have gone home with a bitter taste in his mouth. 

It's a sad day when we call heroic actions 'foolish'.