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Don't mess with an old man. He'll just shoot you.
greg58:
I think the 2 thugs are lucky he wasn't packing a 10mm or 45 acp!!
My hat is off to this brave fellow who took a stand, he refused to be the victim.
I will not try to "armchair quarterback" his actions since it all happened so quickly.
Greg
JimP:
--- Quote from: greg58 on July 19, 2012, 10:20:04 AM ---I think the 2 thugs are lucky he wasn't packing a 10mm or 45 acp!!
--- End quote ---
And he is lucky they did not return fire effectively, or stick around after getting ambushed..... he fired his 6, and they did not stick around.... If that was an LCP, he likely was standing at the door with one round left in his gun......
--- Quote ---My hat is off to this brave fellow who took a stand, he refused to be the victim.
--- End quote ---
Mine, as well, but I still think something can be learned from this.
I think this serves as a reminder that:
1- It's a pistol, therefore underpowered. A .380 makes this doubly true. A tiny, lo cap gun might be enough, but I don't want to be standing at the door with one tiny bullet left in the gun like that.
2- Surprise is a "combat multiplier", and a swift, though imperfect attack on an unprepared enemy is often superior to a deliberate, text-book perfect attack on a prepared enemy, particularly when the enemy has a numbers and/or firepower superiority. Action beats reaction.
--- Quote from: metaldoc on July 19, 2012, 08:53:17 AM ---I told myself I was going to stay out of this... BUT, I have to say this... The guy DID something!
I've watched that clip quite a few times and don't see the criticism. Yeah, it might have cost him his life to go on the offensive, but if he hadn't others might have died. Who knows what these guys would have done as worked up as they were? If we wait for the 'perfect' time to react it usually doesn't happen, it just gets worse. I guess he could have ducked under a table and hoped he or anyone didn't get hurt but I also bet he'd have gone home with a bitter taste in his mouth.
It's a sad day when we call heroic actions 'foolish'.
--- End quote ---
Agreed.
sjwsti:
If anyone thinks its "heroic" to charge into a gun muzzle, guns blazing and even sacrifice yourself for a roomfull of sheep, be my guest. Internet gun forums worldwide will herald your sacrifice.
I don't think I have been overly critical by simply pointing out that if any of us ended up in a similar situation, that there might be another way to do it, that lessens the risk of personal injury. Ive seen too many people permanently disabled and killed from gunshot wounds (thats a sad day...) that I plan on doing everything possible to avoid it while simultaneously doing what I can to stop the threat.
The use of cover and lateral movement aren't "advanced" skills. IMO their as basic as sight alignment/trigger squeeze. This particular video seemed like a good reminder (to me anyway) to not neglect working those basic tactics. Sorry if that seemed too critical of our good guy.
Ive been doing this long enough to know that what happens in a real confrontation wont look like what you do in a training environment. You do your best, falling back onto how you have, or haven't, prepared. It will never be "perfect" , but why not strive for that when we train or practice?
We should be able to look at this video objectively and take some lessons from it. I have.
- Shawn
OnTheFly:
Shawn,
I agree. We should strive for the smart tactical response. Hopefully, in the very off chance we would find ourselves having to use our gun for defense, the training will be almost autonomic. However, our actual performance will likely only marginally resemble our training. I am bettering that your reaction, considering your passion for training, will be a much better example of what you should do. I can only hope that I would do the smart thing in such a situation.
Fly
whatsit:
--- Quote from: OnTheFly on July 18, 2012, 12:38:42 PM ---As a Check Airman for a passenger carrying aviation company, I review accidents, incidents, and mistakes that never develop into the first two items. What we hope to glean from studying these events, is a better insight into the training or policies that will reinforce good habits should a pilot end up in one of these situations.
As several have said here, this guy probably should have done the opposite of what he did. And that information may help the rest of us as we contemplate what we would do in a similar situation. It is easy to pick a person's performance apart, but you won't know what you will do until the time arises. Those pilots who scoff at others for not doing the right thing are called armchair pilots. Sometimes their evaluations are spot on and other times they are just blowing hot air to try and impress the world. Having been in an accident myself, I refrain from throwing stones. For my event, even though I performed as I trained, the outcome was still less than desirable. This ultimately resulted in many armchair pilots across the state making erroneous assumptions about what I screwed up.
With that said, training, training, and then training some more will help to ingrain the desired automatic responses in a high pressure situation. However, in the civilian world, who has the time to be that vigilant with their firearms/SD training? Jobs, family, and other high priority items get in the way. There are a few here who have made it their side job and passion. Kudos to them, but that is not a realistic expectation for most of us.
Could we all do a little dry fire or practice some close quarters skills backed up with an occasional course instead of sitting down at the TV with a bag of Cheetos? Probably, but that is about the best that most of us will be able to achieve.
Fly
--- End quote ---
I would be very interested to hear from the trainers and tactics guys that teach courses -- or even those that have taken a lot of courses.
Do you or have you ever taught (or taken) a course based on scenarios observed in videos like the one in the OP? For instance, you might have your students sit with their back to the door and try to duplicate the events in this video (two criminals, lots of innocents moving around, limited time, drawing from concealed & sitting position, etc, etc).
Another one might be to have your student stand in line with a bunch of innocents and have a BG run into the "store" with a gun. See the Walgreens video from Omaha or any number of armed robbery attempts floating around Youtube.
Anyway, I'm just wondering if anyone has a "real world" class that you can use to train yourself in "real world" situations like this. And yes, I know situational awareness and not sitting with your back to the door is probably a good place to start, but we all slip up and bad stuff happens, sometimes.
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