General Categories > Newsworthy

Killers in body armor?

<< < (4/4)

sjwsti:

--- Quote from: sidearm1 on October 22, 2012, 05:52:58 PM ---Just some common sense.  The average person (non LEO) will probably never encounter a person in body armor bent on doing them harm.
--- End quote ---
Your right that the probability is low, but that is little consolation to the victims. There have been a number of shootings just this year by armored killers and the majority of the victims were civilians, not LEOs.     


--- Quote ---(and yes, there are some well known experts that do say aim for the pelvic region, stop the perpetrators motion and then do what needs to be done.  If he is still a threat shoot till the threat stops).
--- End quote ---
Simply shooting someone in the pelvis is not going to automatically effect their mobility. I dont have a DVD or a cable TV show, but I do have two decades of experience in emergency medicine. I have seen these types of injuries first hand and they arent always as dramatic as you might think.

To reliably effect mobility you have to hit the either the joint were the pelvis and femur come together (the hip) or hit the femur and break it.

I have seen these injuries and the victims, almost without exception, were found lying were they were hit and in a tremendous amount of pain. And other than being able to drag themselves a short distance were immobilized.

So what is needed is a "hip" shot, not a "pelvic" shot. I think you will agree, that type of shot will be very difficult to execute under the stress of a violent encounter. And IMO is akin to saying your going to shoot a BGs knee or shoulder.

- Shawn

sidearm1:
Just a quick response.  I appreciate your two decades of "medical experience", I've only been responding to medical emergencies for almost 40 years. Where I have seen patients completely disabled by wounds that are hardly nothing and I have seen patients walking for several minutes with a ruptured aorta, so you can't just blanket statement that something doesn't work.  Read reports from other states, and agencies.  I have worked for a certain state agency that I can't mention on an open format for 30 years, including training literally hundreds of people in firearms.

Now, just for clarification.  I did not say shoot for the pelvis.  I said shoot for the pelvic region which includes the larger muscles and larger bones.  I have researched Nebraska cases and cannot find any where a citizen had to go up against an armored apponent.  I can only repeat what I have found in other agency reports.  Shoot till the threat is over.  Shoot center of mass, that doesn't work, shoot for the head, if that doesn't work shoot for whatever you can see.  How many people really train for this type of stress?  I see all sorts of people wearing tacticool stuff, but when I put them on the line for first time weapons familiarization (after I have listened to the stories of how good the are shooting, especially at live targets, because you know they aren't so good at them paper things because they don't shoot at them regularly) and find that they can't consistent group six shots together on a square range let alone when we put the stress to them. Walt Rausch said it best:  Shoot to stop the threat, shoot what you can see, make them hurt and bleed more then they are making you hurt and bleed.

And finally, I am not a proponent of armor piercing ammunition used for personall defense.  It is just too risky to worry about shoot throughs to bother with the stuff.

sjwsti:
Holy cow! 40 years of street medicine has got to be some kind or record. My plan is to be retired before that milestone, that is as long as the govt doesn't bankrupt itself. If that happens don't kick my walker if we end up at the same scene  :laugh:


The original question was about having to defend yourself against a BG wearing body armor. Just because you cant find any previous record of this type of attack in Ne doesn't mean it cant happen today or tomorrow. We never had a person walk into a mall and commit mass murder until the day it happened. We never had a student walk into a school and start shooting until it happened.

Who trains for this type of stress? I do, my students, friends and colleagues do. Your right when you say most don't. More should.

The OP asked if shooting to the pelvis was a reliable way to stop this type of threat. If I have the choice of shooting to the upper chest, neck and head or the area below the waist, I say again, forget the pelvis.

Just like you said, shoot to the chest and head until the threat stops. These are high percentage target areas that give us the best chance of ending the fight quickly.

I didn't say a pelvic shot doesn't work, I gave several examples were it did. But it only worked because a very specific part of the anatomy was struck.

When you state "there are some well known experts that do say aim for the pelvic region, stop the perpetrators motion and then do what needs to be done", that sounds like all you have to do is shoot someone in the pelvic region and they will immediately stop moving. There are readers of this forum that may take that quite literally and its simply not true. There is only a small area of the pelvic region that, if injured, will reliably immobilize a BG. There is more area that wont.

A shot to a persons pelvic region is not a reliable way to stop someone who doesn't want to be stopped, there are higher percentage areas of the body to target that will end the fight quicker. That is unless that is the only target area presented. Then like you said "Shoot to stop the threat, shoot what you can see, make them hurt and bleed more then they are making you hurt and bleed."

Given our common experience I believe we are on the same page here. I hope I have been more clear. 

- Shawn

sidearm1:
SJWSTI and others.  I think we have both made valid points.  We need to train for everything but not get stuck in some indoctrinated mind lock.  Every incident with a weapon is different and nothing like the square range.

Yes, I have been doing it for a long time and am getting very close to retirement.  And I do have a card signed by HLM with HHS, which I have had for a long time.  I have responded to shootings (worst suicide attempt was with a shotgun and they survived with good emergency care) and numerous wrecks, crashes and people doing dumb things when they shouldn't.

I will now let this thread die.  Practice, Practice, Practice,

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[*] Previous page