Killers in body armor?

[NE Bull]

http://news.yahoo.com/dead-man-found-calif-shooting-wearing-armor-213804940.html

"INGLEWOOD, Calif. (AP) — Police were nearly certain Sunday that a man found dead at the property where five members of a Southern California family were shot — two fatally — was the killer because he was wearing body armor, clutching a handgun and had a bullet hole in his head. ....."

Seeing more and more of these stories (thinking back to the Aurora, CO shooting also) where the criminal is outfitted in body armor.  While the events are tragic, it does show that the criminals are/ must be aware that law abiding citizens can and may well be armed.  Of course this fool (allegedly) ended up shooting himself?  Maybe they don't understand, but from what I understand,  getting shot with vests on still hurts like he!!, which SHOULD take the perp out of the fight. Correct?

Also leads to some What If questions:
So do we train for such things now, or does one continue to concentrate on center mass and let the threat fall where it may? 
Aim lower (gut or groin area)  or higher (neck/head area)?
Follow up shots then if threat is still present? 
Should I be wearing armor , too?

Of course the Liberal Shepherds' answer will be that we need to ban all body armor, cause it makes people die.

[jonm]

why not keep a mag of AP ammo? I dont know if there is a state law against it but there is no federal law against it.

[bullit]

That is why you shoot to neutralize the threat.....wherever it takes....

[CitizenClark]

why not keep a mag of AP ammo? I dont know if there is a state law against it but there is no federal law against it.

Better check 18 U.S.C. 922(a)(7) & (8):

"(a) It shall be unlawful—
...
(7) for any person to manufacture or import armor piercing ammunition, unless—
(A) the manufacture of such ammunition is for the use of the United States, any department or agency of the United States, any State, or any department, agency, or political subdivision of a State;
(B) the manufacture of such ammunition is for the purpose of exportation; or
(C) the manufacture or importation of such ammunition is for the purpose of testing or experimentation and has been authorized by the Attorney General;

(8) for any manufacturer or importer to sell or deliver armor piercing ammunition, unless such sale or delivery—
(A) is for the use of the United States, any department or agency of the United States, any State, or any department, agency, or political subdivision of a State;
(B) is for the purpose of exportation; or
(C) is for the purpose of testing or experimentation and has been authorized by the Attorney General;"

"Armor piercing ammunition" is defined in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17):

"(B) The term `armor piercing ammunition' means-

  (i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and
which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other
substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass,
bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

  (ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and
intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25
percent of the total weight of the projectile.

  (C) The term `armor piercing ammunition' does not include shotgun shot
required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting
purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile
which the Secretary finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting
purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Secretary
finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge
used in an oil and gas well perforating device."

See also http://www.pagunblog.com/2007/07/29/armor-piercing-ammo/

It seems to be okay to possess and acquire AP ammo, but finding it to purchase might be nigh unto impossible because of the federal restrictions on its manufacture and import.

[jonm]

Federally speaking, it isnt illegal to buy, sell, or shoot. Only illegal to make or export.


EDIT
From your own link

It’s perfectly legal to possess, purchase, sell or shoot armor piercing ammunition. It’s not legal to manufacture or import armor piercing ammunition.

[sjwsti]

getting shot with vests on still hurts like he!!, which SHOULD take the perp out of the fight. Correct?

Dont count on it.

So do we train for such things now, or does one continue to concentrate on center mass and let the threat fall where it may?

Train for it now. Forget center of mass. Target area should be the head, neck and a hand size area below the adams apple. Targeting these areas will give you the best chance of stopping the threat quickly. If they are wearing armor you will likely be above the collar even with your initial shots.
 

Aim lower (gut or groin area)  or higher (neck/head area)?

Forget the pelvic shot, unless thats the only area that is presented to shoot at. I have seen people shot in the lower abdomen/groin that were still able to move quite well. Just this week we responded to a shooting were a patient had a single wound from a high power rifle. The entrance was in the high upper thigh with the exit in the top part of their butt crack. This person was still able to run a ways and could still bear weight with little complaint of pain.

Follow up shots then if threat is still present?

Fire a burst into the upper chest. If there isnt an immediate effect shoot them in the face and neck until the threat stops.
 

Should I be wearing armor , too?

Its not very comfortable to wear everyday but there may be circumstances were it wouldnt be a bad idea.

Obviously the bad guys are using it. The Omaha gang unit has arrested several gang members who were illegally armed and wearing body armor. Its not very expensive nor difficult to obtain.

- Shawn

 

[CitizenClark]

Federally speaking, it isnt illegal to buy, sell, or shoot. Only illegal to make or export.

Hah, you beat me to it. I was just adding that clarification, clicked "post," and then saw your post. You are correct.

If you know of a good source of readily available AP ammunition that will work in a concealed carry handgun, link away.

[jonm]

SS190-5.7x28mm ammo. Really pricy but readily available. I'd even bet that the new 40gr FMJ ammo from American Eagle will defeat soft body armor.

Almost any FMJ in 7.62x25

Edit
http://www.fivesevenforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=13097
American Eagle 40gr FMJ will defeat Level II body armor

[wallace11bravo]

Just wear a trench coat and pack an AT-4 as a secondary...

Don't forget to check your backblast area.

[sidearm1]

Just some common sense.  The average person (non LEO) will probably never encounter a person in body armor bent on doing them harm.  What needs to be practiced is the failure to stop drill (depends on whose theory of attack you believe)  This may be two to the body followed by one to the head.  SJWSTI probably said it best.  Shoot till the threat stops.  Do these drills after you have run 100 yards, this will get you close to what it feels like when dealing with a life changing threat, two to the body one to the head (and yes, there are some well known experts that do say aim for the pelvic region, stop the perpetrators motion and then do what needs to be done.  If he is still a threat shoot till the threat stops).

Carrying armor piercing ammo in a spare magazine.  Your going to change mags how?  Do you have cover, do you have distance?  Now you got an armor piercing ammo in your weapon, the bad guy is on drugs, that is why your regular ammo failed, you now shoot him with armor piercing, no armor and the bullets go on forever until something stops them.

Thanks for letting me rant.

We will talk about operators and such later.

[NE Bull]

Carrying armor piercing ammo in a spare magazine.  Your going to change mags how?  Do you have cover, do you have distance?  Now you got an armor piercing ammo in your weapon, the bad guy is on drugs, that is why your regular ammo failed, you now shoot him with armor piercing, no armor and the bullets go on forever until something stops them.

Thanks for letting me rant.

We will talk about operators and such later.

To add; I know it's not something you would think about at the time, but I would think a prosecutor would have a hey day with someone carrying armor piercing ammo for self defense..

[gsd]

Just wear a trench coat and pack an AT-4 as a secondary...

Don't forget to check your backblast area.

Just use the AT-4CS instead. Problem solved.

[jonm]

To add; I know it's not something you would think about at the time, but I would think a prosecutor would have a hey day with someone carrying armor piercing ammo for self defense..

I see that posted a lot concerning reloaded ammo as well. has that ever came up against a defendant in any self defense shooting trial?

[wallace11bravo]

Just use the AT-4CS instead. Problem solved.

Still got that 6m no go zone. Maybe a barrett with M903?

Just some common sense.  The average person (non LEO) will probably never encounter a person in body armor bent on doing them harm.  What needs to be practiced is the failure to stop drill (depends on whose theory of attack you believe)  This may be two to the body followed by one to the head.  SJWSTI probably said it best.  Shoot till the threat stops.  Do these drills after you have run 100 yards, this will get you close to what it feels like when dealing with a life changing threat, two to the body one to the head (and yes, there are some well known experts that do say aim for the pelvic region, stop the perpetrators motion and then do what needs to be done.  If he is still a threat shoot till the threat stops).

Thank you.

[cracked junior]

Carry a 50 bmg revolver.    Over penetration could be a problem.

[sjwsti]

Just some common sense.  The average person (non LEO) will probably never encounter a person in body armor bent on doing them harm.

Your right that the probability is low, but that is little consolation to the victims. There have been a number of shootings just this year by armored killers and the majority of the victims were civilians, not LEOs.     

(and yes, there are some well known experts that do say aim for the pelvic region, stop the perpetrators motion and then do what needs to be done.  If he is still a threat shoot till the threat stops).

Simply shooting someone in the pelvis is not going to automatically effect their mobility. I dont have a DVD or a cable TV show, but I do have two decades of experience in emergency medicine. I have seen these types of injuries first hand and they arent always as dramatic as you might think.

To reliably effect mobility you have to hit the either the joint were the pelvis and femur come together (the hip) or hit the femur and break it.

I have seen these injuries and the victims, almost without exception, were found lying were they were hit and in a tremendous amount of pain. And other than being able to drag themselves a short distance were immobilized.

So what is needed is a "hip" shot, not a "pelvic" shot. I think you will agree, that type of shot will be very difficult to execute under the stress of a violent encounter. And IMO is akin to saying your going to shoot a BGs knee or shoulder.

- Shawn

[sidearm1]

Just a quick response.  I appreciate your two decades of "medical experience", I've only been responding to medical emergencies for almost 40 years. Where I have seen patients completely disabled by wounds that are hardly nothing and I have seen patients walking for several minutes with a ruptured aorta, so you can't just blanket statement that something doesn't work.  Read reports from other states, and agencies.  I have worked for a certain state agency that I can't mention on an open format for 30 years, including training literally hundreds of people in firearms.

Now, just for clarification.  I did not say shoot for the pelvis.  I said shoot for the pelvic region which includes the larger muscles and larger bones.  I have researched Nebraska cases and cannot find any where a citizen had to go up against an armored apponent.  I can only repeat what I have found in other agency reports.  Shoot till the threat is over.  Shoot center of mass, that doesn't work, shoot for the head, if that doesn't work shoot for whatever you can see.  How many people really train for this type of stress?  I see all sorts of people wearing tacticool stuff, but when I put them on the line for first time weapons familiarization (after I have listened to the stories of how good the are shooting, especially at live targets, because you know they aren't so good at them paper things because they don't shoot at them regularly) and find that they can't consistent group six shots together on a square range let alone when we put the stress to them. Walt Rausch said it best:  Shoot to stop the threat, shoot what you can see, make them hurt and bleed more then they are making you hurt and bleed.

And finally, I am not a proponent of armor piercing ammunition used for personall defense.  It is just too risky to worry about shoot throughs to bother with the stuff.

[sjwsti]

Holy cow! 40 years of street medicine has got to be some kind or record. My plan is to be retired before that milestone, that is as long as the govt doesn't bankrupt itself. If that happens don't kick my walker if we end up at the same scene 


The original question was about having to defend yourself against a BG wearing body armor. Just because you cant find any previous record of this type of attack in Ne doesn't mean it cant happen today or tomorrow. We never had a person walk into a mall and commit mass murder until the day it happened. We never had a student walk into a school and start shooting until it happened.

Who trains for this type of stress? I do, my students, friends and colleagues do. Your right when you say most don't. More should.

The OP asked if shooting to the pelvis was a reliable way to stop this type of threat. If I have the choice of shooting to the upper chest, neck and head or the area below the waist, I say again, forget the pelvis.

Just like you said, shoot to the chest and head until the threat stops. These are high percentage target areas that give us the best chance of ending the fight quickly.

I didn't say a pelvic shot doesn't work, I gave several examples were it did. But it only worked because a very specific part of the anatomy was struck.

When you state "there are some well known experts that do say aim for the pelvic region, stop the perpetrators motion and then do what needs to be done", that sounds like all you have to do is shoot someone in the pelvic region and they will immediately stop moving. There are readers of this forum that may take that quite literally and its simply not true. There is only a small area of the pelvic region that, if injured, will reliably immobilize a BG. There is more area that wont.

A shot to a persons pelvic region is not a reliable way to stop someone who doesn't want to be stopped, there are higher percentage areas of the body to target that will end the fight quicker. That is unless that is the only target area presented. Then like you said "Shoot to stop the threat, shoot what you can see, make them hurt and bleed more then they are making you hurt and bleed."

Given our common experience I believe we are on the same page here. I hope I have been more clear. 

- Shawn

[sidearm1]

SJWSTI and others.  I think we have both made valid points.  We need to train for everything but not get stuck in some indoctrinated mind lock.  Every incident with a weapon is different and nothing like the square range.

Yes, I have been doing it for a long time and am getting very close to retirement.  And I do have a card signed by HLM with HHS, which I have had for a long time.  I have responded to shootings (worst suicide attempt was with a shotgun and they survived with good emergency care) and numerous wrecks, crashes and people doing dumb things when they shouldn't.

I will now let this thread die.  Practice, Practice, Practice,