Remember, it's illusion of choice...

[00BUCK]

I am so sick of hearing, "a vote for anyone but Romney is a vote for Obama."  If anything it's the percentage of voters that are voting for a candidate just because they are not the other guy when there is another candidate they would actually prefer that are making this the case.  I don't know about anyone else but I will be voting for the candidate I feel will be best fit as president, which I don't think is Romney or Obama.  If Obama get's re-elected it will be the fault of the percentage of the population that isn't voting for the candidate they feel best fit, and instead voting for the "lesser of two evils" as many say.  I know it won't be the fault of my vote.  Especially in Nebraska   

   Obama    Dem    55,150,299    
   Romney    GOP    54,025,359    
   Others       1,677,100

You SHOULD be sick - sick that 1.7 million people decided to give Obama another 4 years....

[unfy]

buck: well, to begin with - popular vote doesn't decide it.  taking a look at close states, the third party votes wouldn't have changed the outcome.  i'd also really think twice about attempting to point fingers like that

secondly, as this thread has shown - there weren't any policy differences between Romney/Obama, so for someone like me who honestly doesn't see a difference... either of those two candidates winning would have counted as a loss / bad thing.

ie:

So now we get obamacare rather than a 'tweaked' obamacare or a romneycare.  so no big change there.

We have a president who has answered questions regarding the 2A as not wanting to restrict things.... sounds romneyish too.  so no big loss there.

We still have a president who thinks we should be sticking our nose where it don't belong concerning foreign affairs... sounds like romney to me.

We still have a keynesian school of thought president... still sounding like romney...

so.... what we've lost is the off chance that a president might act differently than how his past nearly certainly suggested he would.


if it helps, you can think of it this way.  since we can't seem to name policy differences... the man you wanted didn't win, but the policies did win.

[cckyle]

   Obama    Dem    55,150,299    
   Romney    GOP    54,025,359    
   Others       1,677,100

You SHOULD be sick - sick that 1.7 million people decided to give Obama another 4 years....

I'm not even sure what to say to this.  I must have missed all those swing states where the third party voters really turned out.  As far as the 1.7 million people I'm not sick at all that they voted third party, in fact I would have have been happy to see that number quite a bit higher. 

[Husker_Fan]

Credibility for a third party by getting a decent number of votes may have actually gotten the powers-that-be in the two main parties to abandon the status quo and actually start governing responsibly.

[AAllen]

While I appreciate the third party argument (look both of the current parties were once upon a time a third party that overtook a party that was in existence) this election came down to less than 300,000 votes in particular states (making the electoral college).  And a couple of them the third party vote would have come real close to making up the difference, and in a few recounts still might tighten things up.  Look Alan West was said to have lost on election night by a fairly sizable amount, but in the recount that he insisted upon he has a significant lead over his opponent.

Was there any major differences between the two major candidates to a degree there was not.  Both parties have become about creating more power for themselves which means bigger government.  But on the issue of our second amendment rights the most important question right now is who is on the Supreme Court, and we are likely to have given Obama a chance to put two or three more Elaina Kaggens on the court in this last election.  Where a person stands on my rights is where I vote, and even though there is no major differences between the two candidates the people the appoint to carry things out would have been extremely differant, and the third party vote which has not been able to come to a sizable enough amount to do anything is costing me my rights.  This is not only effecting major races like the Presidential elections but also the smaller local races. 

If you would like to sit down and have a beer sometime and discuss these things in depth I would enjoy the conversation.  We have a lot of our positions in common, we just see the big picture of how to get from point a to point b differently.  Until we can come together and find a map to the future that we can agree upon these differences are going to continue to plague us politically.  The left has come together at least in there voting the right needs to learn the lesson that the left has and move forward.

[wallace11bravo]

Out of the people I know who voted for Gary: 8 (including myself)

6 of them, if given no other choice, would have voted for Obama. I did not ask all of them why.

2 (me), if given no other choice would have voted for Romney. And the ONLY reason we would have is because of the dire fiscal situation.


For the sake of sanity, do not keep insisting that third party candidates are only stealing votes from your candidates.

Instead of blaming third parties, perhaps both parties should take a long hard look at the policies that are driving people away.

I hear most often cited:
Repubs: (legislating morality)
Theocratic values(Gay marriage, reproductive rights, evolution) *scroll down for my personal rant
Corporate subisidies
Unrealistic and impractical position on illegal immigration
Unwillingness to cooperate (Tax reform)
Innacurate reporting (propaganda, fake science, incorrect data)
War on drugs


Dems: (legislating equality)
Gun Control
Runaway entitlement programs
Runaway budget deficit and debt
Unwillingness to cooperate (budget cuts)
Corporate subsidies
War on drugs

*The theocratic values are probably the biggest things that drove me away from the republican party. I lived in theocracies, that is not freedom, that is not liberty, that is state sponsored religion used to control the masses. Evolution is science, creationism is theology. Females should have reproductive rights, but you have republicans saying things like this:

1. Todd Akin: “If it’s a legitimate rape, the female body has ways of shutting that whole thing down” - mid 2012 Senate Campaign

2. Clayton Williams: “If it’s inevitable, just relax and enjoy it” - mid 1990 Gubernatorial race in Texas

3.  Chuck Winder: “I would hope that when a woman goes in to a physician with a rape issue, that physician will indeed ask her about perhaps her marriage, was this pregnancy caused by normal relations in a marriage or was it truly caused by a rape. I assume that’s part of the counseling that goes on.” - March 2012

4.  Ken Buck: “A jury could very well conclude that this is a case of buyer’s remorse … It appears to me … you invited him over… the appearance is of consent.” - October 2010

5. Rick Santorum: “I think the right approach is to accept this horribly created — in the sense of rape — but nevertheless a gift in a very broken way, the gift of human life, and accept what God has given to you… rape victims should make the best of a bad situation.” - January, 2012

[unfy]

Here at work, we didn't really discuss who we were voting for prior to the election.

Turns out the office voted Johnson heh.

The debate on voting for 'lesser of two evils' is... lengthy.  Some analogies:

If I sit down at a restaurant and they tell me my only choices are dog poop and cat poop... I'm walking out the door.

If I'm tied up and have the choice between someone hitting me with a wooden bat, someone hitting me with a metal bat, or someone who might let me go free, I'll pick the third person.

There was a time when red vs blue could easily be argued that one side has a few draw backs but those were worth dealing with cause their views mostly aligned with your own.

This election and the last 4-8 years, where has that distinction gone ?  Where's the difference ?  Purple party for the win!


Now, turning to vote counts.

First ... lets just with comparing vote count from 2008 to 2012.

2008: 59,948,240 for McCain
2012: 58,363,044 for Romney

So, in 4 years later, fewer people voted for Romney than they did McCain.

In 2008, third party votes were around 1,843k votes, coming up to around 1.41%
In 2012, third party votes were around 1,828k votes, coming up to around 1.51%

Attempting to blame third party stuff for siphoning votes off is silly by these numbers


This year, looking at some close states.

Florida:
4,202,606 Obama
4,138,990 Romney
------------------------
63,616 Difference

Independent vote count (not including write ins apparently) would be around 70-75k.  Of which, Johnson pulled 44k.  If you erroneously believe that all third party votes would have been red (which they wouldn't have been... would you have voted for roseanne barr ?) ... then sure, third party made a difference.




Virginia:

1,905,528 Obama
1,789,618 Romney
------------------------
115,910 difference

Independent vote (not including write ins): 52k or so.  Doesn't make a difference.


Wisconsin:
1,613,950 Obama
1,408,746 Romney
------------------------
205,204 Difference

Third party vote (not including write ins) is under 40k.  Doesn't make a difference.


Ohio:

2,697,260 Obama
2,593,779 Romney
--------------------------
103,481 Difference

Independent vote: around 86k.  Wouldn't have made a difference.


Pennsylvania
2,907,448 Obama
2,619,583 Romney
-------------------------
287,865 Difference

Third party vote: 69k  would not have made a difference.


Colorado

1,238,490 Obama
1,125,391 Romney
-------------------------
113,099 Difference

Third party vote: 55k ish ?  Nope, no difference there.


So.... outside of some insane Republican Party Ron Paul write in fest (which may or may not have been done, i dunno?) ... attempting to blame third party stuff is VERY moot.

"Political Strategy" constructs abound as to why things turned out like they did.  From a somewhat outsider, I'll point these out...

* Obama got 69M votes in 2008, and only 61M in 2012.  Nearly a 12% drop and the red party could do what ?
* Romney lost the primary to McCain last time around.  You expected him to do better among your own party base this time ?
* Where are the policy differences ? I know Republicans that were disgusted enough to not bother
* Ron Paul was (and still is) packing stadiums left and right, has a very fervent fan base, etc .... yet the way the party treated him was downright ugly.  No bones were thrown, nothing.  Way to piss off stadiums filled with people.
* I dunno if the general population at large cares, but continuing with the treatment of Paul - the rules change on the RNC floor was poorly handled.  That'd leave a sour taste in anyone's mouth, no matter what your position on Paul was.
* Quit saying stupid **** in front of a mic or in a memo (see wallace's post).

Talking with some friends that were very pro-Obama, they were very much of the opinion "anyone but Romney".


Moving on to the SCOTUS.

Would Romney have picked 'our favorites' -> probably not.  The man's history doesn't indicate that.

Would Romeny have picked 'more centrist' or at least 'less left' -> Prolly.

But when you don't see a difference between a man's policy / platform, why would you assume he'd pick SCOTUS people differently ?


Very very very stupid mistakes by politicians saying very stupid things... (re: rape).... yeah... sigh.  I have no idea wtf is wrong with these guys.  Rape is very very bad, mmmkay.  Even religious people view it as such.

Bringing this into pro-life/choice ... I still do NOT understand what the big deal is.  RvW settled it Constitutionally.  Unless you're gonna get an Amendment through, move on with your life.

Politicians need to only say something like: It's a very complex issue that is very personal and emotion invoking.  Wiser men than I, the SCOTUS, decided RvW already.  For those that really want to know, my personal belief is that abortions are (right/wrong).

I think the whole 'pick a trimester when abortions become wrong' is just a smoke screen as well as attempting to find political middle ground on a subject via a personal/emotional stance rather than any type of legal mumbo jumbo.

For what it's worth, I abide by SCOTUS decisions from a legal stand point (this mandate decision is... well... cough... hard to swallow).  On moral ground, I am pro-life with the understanding that there are some truly heinous situations that I can't begin to contemplate due to how awful they are.  Such as: life / death situation for both mom and fetus.  I hope to never be put in such a situation to have to make that kind of choice.

[wallace11bravo]

^+10000000

I was just trying to show that libertarians come from both sides. Thank you for the thorough and comprehensive report.

How Ron was treated appalled me as well. There is a true fiscal conservative I could get behind.

[unfy]

A cute bit of info, dunno if it's accurate or not, and the date suggests it's a tad old heh:

An estimated 201.5 million U.S. citizens age 18 or over will be eligible to vote Nov. 2, although many are not now registered. Of these, about 55 million are registered Republicans. About 72 million
registered Democrats.

About 42 million are registered as independents, under some other minor party or with a "No Party" designation.

If we take those that are registered (72 + 55 + 42 = 169M), we come up with:

42% democrat
32% republican
24% independent

That would paint a very interesting picture if the vote turned out Obama/Romney/Johnson at those percentages ?


The thing where third party stuff becomes much more influential is local and in Congress.  If Congress ends up split, while the POTUS is still important, getting Congress to cooperate is much more interesting.

If you think that the third party stuff is siphoning off of the red party, then the red party is obviously doing something very horribly wrong and disenfranchising folks so much that they're not willing to "vote the lesser of two evils" any more.

If those disenfranchised folks share similar opinions as yours... you gotta ask what drove them away but doesn't bother you as much.  Not a whole lot you can do about their choice on a personal level, except perchance vote for candidates from within your party that better fit your ideals.... so that the party policy / alignment comes closer to your own (and hopefully the disenfranchised).

PS, yes i hate the word 'disenfranchised' now heh.  Said it entirely too many times.