What makes a certain brand of AR higher quality?

[bk09]

I have always wondered what exactly makes a "quality" AR 15 a "quality" gun. Aren't most AR receivers built to the same exact specs? Especially since they are all compatible with aftermarket accessories (except Colts having a large pin for the trigger). What makes a stag/colt/la rue different from a dpms/bushmaster? I always believed an AR is an AR (with the exception of the cheap polymer bushmaster, those feel like trash). Convince me I am wrong, or show me I am right in assuming they are all the same.

Btw does anybody have experience with RGuns? Been really interested in building a long range AR with their 20" superbull twister barrel upper or 24" fluted stainless superbull upper.

[jimneb]

The differences are similar to other types of guns. The quality of the materials, machining, fit and finish etc.

I own revolvers made by Arminius, Smith and Wesson, Rohm and Iver Johnson. The Rohm is a total POS that I would never fire. The Smith and Wesson and Arminius are noticeably better in fit and finish than the Iver Johnson and the Rohm.

Some gun manufacturers have better QA and customer service than others. Everyone will produce some defective products from time to time but what are they willing to do about it?

[sparky0068]

Different materials and manufacturing methods, also take into account volume, because typically higher volume equals a higher chance of mistakes. 

Some people make a big deal of barrel materials, ie. 4140 vs 4150, 4150n is slightly harder due to more carbon in the steel.

Forged aluminum vs extruded.  Chrome lined bore vs not.

Its all peanuts, I have had a DPMS, Rockriver and a Del-ton, the DPMS has been the most reliable and accurate.

The options are endless, so get whatever feels like a good deal for what you want at whatever price point you desire.

YMMV

[wallace11bravo]

I have always wondered what exactly makes a "quality" AR 15 a "quality" gun. Aren't most AR receivers built to the same exact specs?

No, milspec does not really mean anything, it is just a marketing gimmick. Manufacturing specs are slightly different, and anything manufactured to higher tolerances is going to cost more. Anything manufactured to varied specs, to improve reliability or accuracy, is going to cost more. Why does a GAP R700 cost >$3,000 but you can pick up a R700 at walmart for $650?

One quick test is to put one hand on the barrel, one on the buffer tube, and twist. Do you see and hear alot of movement? There is alot more to it than that, but that is the most easily detected.

Especially since they are all compatible with aftermarket accessories (except Colts having a large pin for the trigger). What makes a stag/colt/la rue different from a dpms/bushmaster?

Colts are highly over-rated, not really worth the $$, but people falsely assume that because they manufacture M4s for the military, they must be good quality (I call this "leupold syndrome"). Stags are decent. Larues are good, reliable, accurate. They are built to tight tolerances, requiring more expensive, time consuming and a higher skilled laborer to manufacture.

There is really nothing "wrong" with bushys or dpms, they just have lower tolerances, less money spent on R&D for improvements over the base design, etc.

When people build frankenguns, even from quality components, they often end up with substandard weapons for the same reasons. Tolerances and measurements are all slightly different, leading to a loss in accuracy and/or reliability.

Btw does anybody have experience with RGuns? Been really interested in building a long range AR with their 20" superbull twister barrel upper or 24" fluted stainless superbull upper.

Rguns are known to be souped up DPMS. They may be good, or may not. Not sure of the retail $$, but I'll point you towards a Noveske. A ground up build out of the same shop from the company that is well known to produce excellent quality ARs, as opposed to a relatively unknown company who re manufactures lower quality ARs.

[jimneb]

No, milspec does not really mean anything, it is just a marketing gimmick. Manufacturing specs are slightly different, and anything manufactured to higher tolerances is going to cost more. Anything manufactured to varied specs, to improve reliability or accuracy, is going to cost more. Why does a GAP R700 cost >$3,000 but you can pick up a R700 at walmart for $650?

One quick test is to put one hand on the barrel, one on the buffer tube, and twist. Do you see and hear alot of movement? There is alot more to it than that, but that is the most easily detected.

Colts are highly over-rated, not really worth the $$, but people falsely assume that because they manufacture M4s for the military, they must be good quality (I call this "leupold syndrome"). Stags are decent. Larues are good, reliable, accurate. They are built to tight tolerances, requiring more expensive, time consuming and a higher skilled laborer to manufacture.

There is really nothing "wrong" with bushys or dpms, they just have lower tolerances, less money spent on R&D for improvements over the base design, etc.

When people build frankenguns, even from quality components, they often end up with substandard weapons for the same reasons. Tolerances and measurements are all slightly different, leading to a loss in accuracy and/or reliability.

Rguns are known to be souped up DPMS. They may be good, or may not. Not sure of the retail $$, but I'll point you towards a Noveske. A ground up build out of the same shop from the company that is well known to produce excellent quality ARs, as opposed to a relatively unknown company who re manufactures lower quality ARs.

I agree on the Noveske. I bought a Rogue Hunter in August and love it.

[bk09]

No, milspec does not really mean anything, it is just a marketing gimmick. Manufacturing specs are slightly different, and anything manufactured to higher tolerances is going to cost more. Anything manufactured to varied specs, to improve reliability or accuracy, is going to cost more. Why does a GAP R700 cost >$3,000 but you can pick up a R700 at walmart for $650?

How different are the tolerances you mentioned? A few thousandths of an inch? I know barrel quality is a big difference but you can switch them out easy enough for a nicer one. How much does a few thousandths of an inch affect quality with receiver to receiver fit?

[wallace11bravo]

How different are the tolerances you mentioned? A few thousandths of an inch? I know barrel quality is a big difference but you can switch them out easy enough for a nicer one. How much does a few thousandths of an inch affect quality with receiver to receiver fit?

A few thousandths here, a few thousandths there, it adds up. A few thousandths can mean the difference between completing a cycle of function or a failure to extract. As for receiver fit specifically, yes, a few thousands can be the difference between a snug fit and a rattling fit. Pick up a dpms and do that test, then pick up a noveske. The difference is easily noticed.

As an example: I had a case that would not fit into a RCBS shell holder just last night. I measured the rim thickness of it against 5 other cases that had no problems and could only detect, at most, 2/1000s of difference. Slight imperfections lead to big imperfections.

As a theory: A factory R700 has a QC limit of 6/1000ths tolerance between the receiver and the bolt, but a GAP is supposed to be only 2/1000ths. Pick up a factory R700 and a GAP 700 and you can see and feel the difference. If the tolerances are tighter, then the bolt is more concentric to the bore, and the case is not being inconsistently stressed into the chamber, it will seat more consistently into the lands, and transition more consistently into the bore.

As with most things, the underlying theme is consistency. Closer tolerances mean less "rattling" and better consistency.


Why aren't they all the same: The military keeps tolerance standards loose to ensure interchangeability, so if I ever see something labelled "milspec" that on the rare occasion is actually military specifications, I know it is a piece of crap compared to what is available for the same for fewer dollars. Within these loose tolerances is a buttload of wiggle room for various manufacturers to play with. An issued M4 is a piece of crap by any non-military standards. Hell, the standard for accuracy is 4 MOA. You couldn't GIVE me a 4MOA carbine or rifle.

[bk09]

Thanks Wallace, that helped a lot. My DPMS has some of that rattle but I don't have any issues with it, haven't had great groups with it but I haven't dialed in a load for it either. I should get on making a load... had it for over a year and haven't even had sights on it for probably 8 months.