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Author Topic: Role of EMS/EMT Personnel in Securing Handgun During Emergency  (Read 3964 times)

Offline sjwsti

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Re: Role of EMS/EMT Personnel in Securing Handgun During Emergency
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2012, 02:33:48 PM »
It seems that same zero tolerance aspect emerges in these LEO discussions as well. You EMTs are telling us the same sort of thing that the Antis do. I'm speaking in generality, and do understand what I’ve accepted with getting the CHP. The law is the law.

Its not zero tolerance unless you are being transported. Just like those of us that have had LE contact while carrying, some LEOs have secured weapons, some haven't. EMTs also have this discretion during an initial contact.

As far as Im concerned your weapon is safest on you and in your holster. But once a decision is made that you will need to be transported to an ER that weapon wont be allowed in the squad or the hospital.

It will be returned to you. I haven't heard of a single instance were a firearm wasn't returned to its owner due to an emergency transport to a hospital.

I also agree that vigilance against govt intrusions is necessary. More so now than ever. But we are talking about a very unique circumstance. No CCW holder, Police Officer, Soldier, Secret Service Agent, Navy SEAL..etc will be allowed to be armed while being treated. wallace11bravo has listed a number of valid reasons why that would be dangerous for all involved. Trust me, if we are working really hard to save your life the last thing on your mind is going to be your gun.

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Offline greg58

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Re: Role of EMS/EMT Personnel in Securing Handgun During Emergency
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2012, 02:56:09 PM »
I shouldn't have to sign anything to be left alone. If you lay your hands on me against my will, you are committing a battery.

If you are found injured or ill there are "Implied consent laws" that apply to such a person.
It means that a reasonable person would want to be helped in a time of need. If you are found to be mentally competent the EMS providers will not transport you against your will, they will advise you that you need to seek further treatment or not, to the best of their knowlege. EMS providers are not in the business of hauling folks to the Hospital unnessisarily.
They also are not in the business of trying to disarm lawful citizens, however scene safety is drilled into the heads of EMS folks, and I think the legislature wisely came up with the provission that CHP holders shall inform EMS providers and surrender their weapon while in their care.
This is not some kind of a conspiracy, when I go on a call as a Volunteer FF/EMT I am only wanting to do my bit to help the people in my community.
Also consider that the only reason a person has to sign off a refusal of care is because of the lawsuit frenzied society we live in today.
Greg58
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Offline greg58

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Re: Role of EMS/EMT Personnel in Securing Handgun During Emergency
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2012, 03:02:14 PM »
I also remember an instance where we transported a LEO to the hospital in uniform, he willingly gave his duty belt and weapons to another officer before we transported him to the ER.
The funny thing is, he was most worried about his AR15 that was his own property, and he wanted it secured back at their station.
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Offline sjwsti

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Re: Role of EMS/EMT Personnel in Securing Handgun During Emergency
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2012, 03:24:19 PM »
I would add that if you attend any civilian TacMed course you will be told that before giving immediate aid, if they patient is armed, disarm them. The specific reasons why should be explained.

(Shameless plug; As gun owners we all have a responsibility to have the training and skills necessary to treat life threatening bleeding, penetrating trauma to the chest....etc. Just so happens I teach one  :D)

Some of you may end up in a situation were you will have to disarm a US citizen for your own safety and the safety of those around you in order to render aid.  :o

My guess is that you will get over violating their liberty. If they survive, they will probably thank you for it later.

- Shawn
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Offline unfy

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Re: Role of EMS/EMT Personnel in Securing Handgun During Emergency
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2012, 09:37:59 PM »
Just a couple cents.

While there are many medical personel that do end up being somewhere-up-the-line bankrolled by the gov't, last I checked... their paycheck doesn't say US Treasury in the signatory.

Next, practical field medical stuff has always involved disarming the wounded or similarly securing the weapon (even if it's just insisting the weapon remains in the wounded's holster).  If you're weapon's drawn, that just shows you're that much more ready to discharge the weapon.

When it comes to an ambulance trip - you're riding in someone else's vehicle.  Therefore, as CCW, you play by THEIR rules.  Just like walking on someone else's property or riding in their car.  There might be something to be said for being forced to go to a hospital ... and the suspension of carry and bills that follow, but that's a different subject.

Having been carried by an ambulance, there is much practicality to not allowing weapons during transport.  There is ALOT going on constantly during the trip, having the possible distraction of a weapon would not be a good thing.  Also, being a confined space, it would be difficult to manage the situation safely if the transportee snapped.

I dunno, I think it's quite simple...

a) is the threat over with ?
b) am i injured ?
c) will i continue to need my weapon in the immediate future ?
d) can i receive immediate treatment and drive myself to a hospital (doubt they'd like that) ?
e) am i making the situation worse ?
f) barring forced-transport-to-hospital-questions, a business is more than welcome to refuse service to someone and an EMT is more than welcome to not put themselves or their buddies in danger if they aint comfy with the way you're acting.

hoppe's #9 is not the end all be all woman catching pheramone people make it out to be ... cause i smell of it 2 or 3 times a week but remain single  >:D

Offline sidearm1

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Re: Role of EMS/EMT Personnel in Securing Handgun During Emergency
« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2012, 11:35:49 AM »
First thing we need to learn is that Citizen clark is just a troll trying to stir things up.  Second if he does not call 911 for any of his emergencies (I wouldn't want the guvmint to limit his freedom of travel because they might put him in a guvmint vehicle and take him to a guvmint subsidized medical facility) he does not have to worry about anyone taking his weapon.  We responded to a scene (no weapon involved) where the driver started out all bubbly and happy to see friends that care about him to almost immediately being violent to the point that I pulled all of my EMTs away until the Deputies could get him restrained.  We are going to ask people if they have weapons on them, we will secure the weapons not to make you submit to some type of government intrustion, but to make sure that you or us do not get hurt accidentally or intentially.  Once again if you do not want this, don't call 911.

Offline SemperFiGuy

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Re: Role of EMS/EMT Personnel in Securing Handgun During Emergency
« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2012, 01:32:58 PM »
Thanks Now to Each & All of You EMS/EMT/FF Folks Who Have Responded So Far to This Forum Topic

In your everyday world of work, you encounter Blood In The Streets.   The Rest of Us drive by slowly, trying to get a glimpse of the scene.   We leave; you stay on the spot with the chaos, pain, and gore.   These experiences with human tragedy certainly give your comments great credibility so far as I'm concerned.

Also---You are the ideal group to comment.   LEOs are traditionally tight-lipped and perhaps a bit suspicious outside their own group of fellow LEOs.   Probably for valid reasons.

I've already used these postings to update my CHP instructional PowerPoints, filling in with some of the important details that you provided.   Your responses will help me to help future CHP students, starting with this coming Saturday's class.

Excellent dialogue and information flow here.   Hope it continues on.

sfg
 


« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 03:29:48 PM by SemperFiGuy »
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Offline Famous556

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Re: Role of EMS/EMT Personnel in Securing Handgun During Emergency
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2012, 09:30:01 AM »
I feel like I can give a little bit of insight here.  I am a paramedic and work in the 911 field and also for a private outfit.

This seems to be a hot topic, but I'm not really sure what the big issue is.  One of the things that I've yet to see mentioned except by sjwsti is that when people are being transported in an ambulance they are being transported to a hospital, specifically an emergency room, which is a prohibited place by state statute... all of you learned this in CCW class.  Securing a weapon prior to transport should be a no brainer, I would much rather have a LEO handle and secure my weapon than a hospital security guard who may have little to no training or familiarity with firearms.

I've been on countless calls where someone has tried to hit me or kick me or bite me or fight me, most of the people performing those actions are people who would otherwise be normal respectable people.  The fact is that both traumatic injuries and medical conditions can and frequently do make people act like they wouldn't normally.  People with head injuries from car accidents for example can be very aggressive.  People can be unconscious and then wake up enroute to the hospital and try to fight their way off of a backboard all the while not having any idea what they are doing.  Diabetic patients who are hypoglycemic are very often aggressive and confused.  A particular patient comes to mind that was the most kind and reasonable guy when he didn't have a problem, but when his blood glucose would get low he would turn into the incredible hulk and try to fight us off the entire time.  Each time this happened and we corrected the situation he would explain that he remembered trying to fight us and would apologize profusely and thank us for helping him.  The simple fact is that sick and injured people can and often do behave in ways that are completely out of character. 

One of the first things that EMTs and paramedics are taught to do upon reaching a scene is to ensure the scene is safe.  Just a few points down the list when reaching a patient is to establish a mental status for that patient.  This is incredibly easy and can be done through nothing more than talking to someone to determine their demeanor and if they are responding appropriately. 

The way I see it this part of the statute is a well thought out piece of law (That is probably the only time you will ever read those words from my keyboard).  Making sure the scene is safe is the primary part of my job.  If I'm injured because I didn't do that, then the patient is not getting any better as the remaining (and now short handed) EMTs try to care for two patients.  I think it's entirely reasonable for EMS or fire to have the ability to disarm someone when its necessary.

Some of you folks on here sound the same as the anti's do when they scream about blood in the streets when CCW is brought up, except its disarmament and infringement in the streets from the big bad EMTs.  I'm all for protecting and expanding every bit of our rights we can, but lets put our focus on the right people.  EMTs are a different breed that's for sure, but we're not bad people who are looking to disarm everybody we come across..... remember I'm on and give money to the same board as you guys. 

My general opinion of government and people is that most people are reasonable and should be left to their own choices and consequences, and government should keep out of the everyday mans life.  Those on here stating that EMTs are agents of the state just sounds a bit nutty.  I never did get my agent of the state license along with my EMS license (which by the way is granted first by a private outfit and then given direct reciprocity by the state), but maybe I should call and check on that, perhaps its hidden on my license in some top secret ink that's only visible under an IR designator.
Human life and limb preservation specialist

Offline gsd

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Re: Role of EMS/EMT Personnel in Securing Handgun During Emergency
« Reply #28 on: December 03, 2012, 10:03:24 AM »
ProMed or AMR?
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Offline Famous556

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Re: Role of EMS/EMT Personnel in Securing Handgun During Emergency
« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2012, 10:15:44 AM »
Negative and negative.
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Offline gsd

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Re: Role of EMS/EMT Personnel in Securing Handgun During Emergency
« Reply #30 on: December 03, 2012, 12:48:26 PM »
glad to hear that. :)
It is highly likely the above post may offend you. I'm fine with that.