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Author Topic: 40 or 9mm for Concealed Carry  (Read 10276 times)

Offline GreyGeek

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Re: 40 or 9mm for Concealed Carry
« Reply #40 on: December 13, 2012, 10:03:56 PM »
I knew I had seen that jpg of the gelatin tracks of several bullets before, and I found it.  The  original (without the bogus 10mm mushroom cloud)  is on the next to last page of this report
http://mdtstraining.com/Wound_Ballistics_101.pdf
It is, essential, a verbatim copy of the 1989 FBI Ballistics report, with the graphics at the end added.

It concludes:
Quote
FBI: Conclusions
Physiologically, no caliber or bullet is certain to incapacitate any individual unless the brain is hit. Psychologically, some individuals can be incapacitated by minor or small caliber wounds. Those individuals who are stimulated by fear, adrenaline, drugs, alcohol, and/or sheer will and survival determination may not be incapacitated even if mortally wounded.

The will to survive and to fight despite horrific damage to the body is commonplace on the battlefield, and on the street. Barring a hit to the brain, the only way to force incapacitation is to cause sufficient blood loss that the subject can no longer function, and that takes time. Even if the heart is instantly destroyed, there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support full and complete voluntary action for 10-15 seconds.

Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth.   The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding.  Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the
participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed." Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will  penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet.

Offline camus

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Re: 40 or 9mm for Concealed Carry
« Reply #41 on: December 14, 2012, 11:08:02 PM »
Gelatin and bullet samples all need a some scale, compare all sidearm rounds to rifle calibers and the differences shrink considerably. IMO, GTFO and shot placement are the best policy with CCW calibers.

Offline Sincendiary

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Re: 40 or 9mm for Concealed Carry
« Reply #42 on: December 15, 2012, 05:04:26 AM »
Without wading too far into the debate as jthhapkido pretty much nailed everything.  If you can shoot it well and you'll carry it.  It's a win.

I also carry a Glock 17 9mm because I shot better groups with it than I did with the comparable .40 at the rental range.  Helps that it's cheaper to feed too.  I'm sure with training I could make the .40 work but I kind of prefer shooting both 9mm and 45 ACP to it.

I use 147 gr JHP Winchester PDX1 at the moment as my defense load but have carried Hornady's Critical Defense as well.

I tried the .380 thing for a while as a summer carry, a Taurus TCP was impulse bought on sale while buying ammo.  It's probably getting traded out for a G26 (the baby glock 9mm) or that damned shiny XDS 45 (Hitchcock45's video may have sold me buying new holsters) the next time I get ambushed by a deal on one of them.  While I got it to run pretty well, it was concealable in swim trunks, and I would rather have it than nothing it'd be hard for me to put faith in it for much.
 
.40 for me kind of feels like that in-between ammo I never asked for and don't need.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 05:16:10 AM by Sincendiary »

Offline GreyGeek

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Re: 40 or 9mm for Concealed Carry
« Reply #43 on: December 15, 2012, 09:22:30 PM »
Gelatin and bullet samples all need a some scale, compare all sidearm rounds to rifle calibers and the differences shrink considerably. IMO, GTFO and shot placement are the best policy with CCW calibers.

Exactly.    If you can't hit it you won't hurt it.

Offline JTH

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Re: 40 or 9mm for Concealed Carry
« Reply #44 on: December 16, 2012, 09:10:59 AM »
Exactly.    If you can't hit it you won't hurt it.

Agreed.

I'm still curious if you can point me to a news article or information about:

" A lady in Waverly, NE shot herself this last week when she set down to retie her shoe laces and her pistol fell  out of her pocket, hit the ground and discharged into her leg."

...which you said a couple of days ago.  I still can't find any mention of that anywhere.

You also said:
"These facts are why I am selecting a 147gr FMJ instead of a FHP (sic)"

I'm still not sure why that is.  I realize you talked about penetration, but modern 9mm JHP has adequate penetration based on the tests you gave.  (And the links I provided.)  In addition, your discussion talked about wounds and internal bleeding, and FMJs are well-known to NOT cause anything like the internal bleeding/damage of JHPs.

Plus, JHPs (modern ones, at least) reliably expand, and which gives you the "larger hole" mentioned in your last study excerpt.

So---why FMJ?
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Offline GreyGeek

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Re: 40 or 9mm for Concealed Carry
« Reply #45 on: December 16, 2012, 06:14:17 PM »
I first saw the story on TV.   It is about a gun falling out of the pocket of a woman who was talking a walk  near waverly.   She sat down to tie her shoe laces when it fell out and the impact  of hitting the  ground caused the trigger to jerk, firing the weapon.
http://www.lincolnonlinenews.com/pages/14943713.php

As far as 147gr FMJ's, I'd shoot heavier rounds IF I  could  find them (and afford them).   It's about penetration power.  If it is winter, or the perp is wearing heavy clothing or layers of leather (home made armor), or is even moderately obese  and your bullet blows upon  the surface, or shortly under it, it may  never hit vital  organs.   As far as heavier bullets hitting bystanders in the background, if you haven't taken that into consideration BEFORE you decide to shoot it doesn't matter which round you are using.  In the excitement you could graze or  miss the perp and hit someone standing behind him.  And, I've investigated several shootings and homicides for law enforcement and basically people don't die from cavatation wounds caused by hand gun hollow points.   They die by bleeding to death.  The deeper the hole the more bleeding.   Death is only  instant when they are hit in the brain or brain stem.       High velocity rife rounds are another matter.    An HP round fired from a rifle will most definitely create a huge and lethal  cavatation wound.

BTW, did you know that it is against the Geneva convention to use HP rounds in warfare?   And that the US Army recently ordered 4.5 million rounds of HP ammo.   If they can't use  it against the enemy then who is left?   Citizens?
« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 11:29:59 PM by GreyGeek »

Offline Lorimor

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Re: 40 or 9mm for Concealed Carry
« Reply #46 on: December 16, 2012, 07:23:24 PM »
I first saw the story about a gun falling out of the pocket of a woman who was talking a walk  near waverly.   She sat down to tie her shoe laces when it fell out and the impact  of hitting the  ground caused the trigger to jerk, firing the weapon.
http://www.lincolnonlinenews.com/pages/14943713.php

As far as 147gr FMJ's, I'd shoot heavier rounds IF I  could  find them (and afford them).   It's about penetration power.  If it is winter, or the perp is wearing heavy clothing or layers of leather (home made armor), or is even moderately obese  and your bullet blows upon  the surface, or shortly under it, it may  never hit vital  organs.   As far as heavier bullets hitting bystanders in the background, if you haven't taken that into consideration BEFORE you decide to shoot it doesn't matter which round you are using.  In the excitement you could graze or  miss the perp and hit someone standing behind him.  And, I've investigated several shootings and homicides for law enforcement and basically people don't die from cavatation wounds caused by hand gun hollow points.   They die by bleeding to death.  The deeper the hole the more bleeding.   Death is only  instant when they are hit in the brain or brain stem.       High velocity rife rounds are another matter.    An HP round fired from a rifle will most definitely create a huge and lethal  cavatation wound.

BTW, did you know that it is against the Geneva convention to use HP rounds in warfare?   And that the US Army recently ordered 4.5 million rounds of HP ammo.   If they can't use  it against the enemy then who is left?   Citizens?

Until I see the majority of major law enforcement agencies migrate away from JHP's (for other than PC reasons), I think I'll stick with the various agencies' decisions, their research and their results.
"It is better to avoid than to run; better to run than to de-escalate; better to de-escalate than to fight; better to fight than to die. The very essence of self-defense is a thin list of things that might get you out alive when you are already screwed." – Rory Miller

Offline bkoenig

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Re: 40 or 9mm for Concealed Carry
« Reply #47 on: December 16, 2012, 08:41:56 PM »
BTW, did you know that it is against the Geneva convention to use HP rounds in warfare?   And that the US Army recently ordered 4.5 million rounds of HP ammo.   If they can't use  it against the enemy then who is left?   Citizens?


It's not against the Geneva Convention.  The Hague Peace Conference forbids the use of projectiles designed to cause unnecessary suffering. 

And I'm pretty sure you're thinking of the recent orders by various Federal law enforcement agencies of hollow point ammunition.  The exact same stuff they use for duty weapons right now.

FMJ is just a poor choice for self defense.  Modern hollow point 9mm ammunition is designed to penetrate sufficiently deep to meet FBI standards, without making the ice pick in & out holes of FMJ.  FMJ will not cause more bleeding than hollow point.  If FMJ was the best choice both federal and local law enforcement would be using it.

Offline JTH

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Re: 40 or 9mm for Concealed Carry
« Reply #48 on: December 16, 2012, 09:51:26 PM »
I first saw the story about a gun falling out of the pocket of a woman who was talking a walk  near waverly.   She sat down to tie her shoe laces when it fell out and the impact  of hitting the  ground caused the trigger to jerk, firing the weapon.
http://www.lincolnonlinenews.com/pages/14943713.php

Hm.  You seem to have some data/information that isn't in that particular story.  Particularly since the story says "at her home". 

And I'd be curious to see what gun goes off without the trigger being pulled.

Quote
As far as 147gr FMJ's, I'd shoot heavier rounds IF I  could  find them (and afford them).   It's about penetration power.  If it is winter, or the perp is wearing heavy clothing or layers of leather (home made armor), or is even moderately obese  and your bullet blows upon  the surface, or shortly under it, it may  never hit vital  organs.

JHPs tend to react like FMJ if the opening is plugged---matter of fact, that is what denim tests are for (when they put denim layers over the gelatin).  It isn't to see if the bullet stops (which it won't) it is to see if the JHP will still expand upon reaching the gelatin or instead act like a FMJ.

My question wasn't about 147s.   It was about why FMJs instead of JHPs.

Quote
As far as heavier bullets hitting bystanders in the background, if you haven't taken that into consideration BEFORE you decide to shoot it doesn't matter which round you are using.  In the excitement you could graze or  miss the perp and hit someone standing behind him.  And, I've investigated several shootings and homicides for law enforcement and basically people don't die from cavatation wounds caused by hand gun hollow points.   They die by bleeding to death.  The deeper the hole the more bleeding.   Death is only  instant when they are hit in the brain or brain stem.       High velocity rife rounds are another matter.    An HP round fired from a rifle will most definitely create a huge and lethal  cavatation wound.

Actually, "the deeper the hole the more bleeding" isn't necessarily true, as research into JHPs has shown when compared to FMJs that punch all the way through.  As many people in the military can attest, 9mm FMJ tends to punch little holes all the way through, and does not incapacitate quickly.  It is certainly true that NO handgun round incapacitates quickly unless directly to the CNS.  However, it is also true that JHP rounds do significantly more damage than FMJ, especially in smaller/faster bullets such as 9mm, and that if you don't hit the CNS, JHP will at least stop the attacker faster than FMJ.

I didn't mention cavitation, because you are correct, with handgun rounds there effectively isn't any worth speaking of, because the elastic effect is too minor, and the tissue just stretches.

None of this changes the fact that JHPs still are shown to be significantly more effective than FMJs, which is why no one but the military uses them. 

Quote
BTW, did you know that it is against the Geneva convention to use HP rounds in warfare?   And that the US Army recently ordered 4.5 million rounds of HP ammo.   If they can't use  it against the enemy then who is left?   Citizens?

Someone else has already made the correction for this statement, so I'll leave it alone.

I still don't understand why FMJ instead of JHP (plenty of 147gr JHP out there---Ranger-T and Federal HST come immediately to mind), and the comments about the women shooting herself just seem odd to me, as you are saying things that weren't in the report, and it's a rare gun that "goes off by itself".
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Offline bkoenig

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Re: 40 or 9mm for Concealed Carry
« Reply #49 on: December 16, 2012, 10:01:38 PM »
Unless she dropped an old revolver without a transfer bar and it hit directly on the hammer, or a single action autoloader with a stupidly light trigger and the safety off, that gun didn't go off when it hit the ground.  Either she tried to catch it on the way down and grabbed the trigger, the trigger snagged on something when it fell, or she was messing around with it and shot herself.  Modern handguns don't just fire when they're dropped.

Edited...I posted my other comment in the wrong thread. 
« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 10:22:40 PM by bkoenig »

Offline GreyGeek

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Re: 40 or 9mm for Concealed Carry
« Reply #50 on: December 17, 2012, 12:18:41 AM »
Channel 8 news, where I heard about it, said she  was "on a walk near her home" and set down to tie a loose shoe lace.  A .22 caliber weapon, which she carried around "for protection",  fell out of her pocket, struck the ground and discharged,  hitting her in the calf.  I didn't see any records on the Lancaster county sheriff's daily call for her being charged with anything.  At her age, 68, maybe they felt getting shot was punishment enough?

Offline Lorimor

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Re: 40 or 9mm for Concealed Carry
« Reply #51 on: December 17, 2012, 07:44:14 AM »
I always wonder, perhaps because I'm a devout cynic, that if the majority of these self-inflicted wounds, blamed on "dropped guns" or "I was just cleaning my gun" were actually caused by stupid and/or careless handling of the firearm?

It's a lot easier to blame gravity or the gun design than to admit we were doing something stupid with it.
"It is better to avoid than to run; better to run than to de-escalate; better to de-escalate than to fight; better to fight than to die. The very essence of self-defense is a thin list of things that might get you out alive when you are already screwed." – Rory Miller

Offline bkoenig

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Re: 40 or 9mm for Concealed Carry
« Reply #52 on: December 17, 2012, 11:30:41 AM »
I always wonder, perhaps because I'm a devout cynic, that if the majority of these self-inflicted wounds, blamed on "dropped guns" or "I was just cleaning my gun" were actually caused by stupid and/or careless handling of the firearm?

It's a lot easier to blame gravity or the gun design than to admit we were doing something stupid with it.

I think that's exactly what it is.

Offline Nebraska12

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Re: 40 or 9mm for Concealed Carry
« Reply #53 on: December 21, 2012, 02:07:28 PM »
Great information if you are ever attacked by a gelatin block.......

This has happened to me....*sigh*...I dare not talk about it...... :(
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Offline Phantom

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Re: 40 or 9mm for Concealed Carry
« Reply #54 on: December 21, 2012, 03:41:33 PM »
This has happened to me....*sigh*...I dare not talk about it...... :(
I always hate it when that happens.   ::)
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Offline JimP

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Re: 40 or 9mm for Concealed Carry
« Reply #55 on: December 21, 2012, 08:15:48 PM »
Quote
The caliber is the least important part of this decision.

.....until it comes to paying for practice ammo.

Some calibers are ridiculously expensive.....
The Right to Keep and BEAR Arms is enshrined explicitly in both our State and Federal Constitutions, yet most of us are afraid to actually excercise that Right, for very good reason: there is a good chance of being arrested........ and  THAT is a damned shame.  III.