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Author Topic: In Which I Get Killed Again (PRT CCW 101 Class AAR)  (Read 3056 times)

Offline Lorimor

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In Which I Get Killed Again (PRT CCW 101 Class AAR)
« on: December 09, 2012, 12:18:37 PM »
Listen to Clint Smith for any time at all and he'll eventually admonish you, the student, that "you can be absolutely magnificent in a fight and still get killed." 

Not that I was by any means magnificent in Saturday's "CCW 101" class held by PRT in Plattsmouth, but still I managed to get myself killed in my scenario.  :(

As I exited the door of the simulated mall with my simulated packages carried in my right hand (note: I was bright enough to keep my strong hand empty.  I'll give myself that much), I was almost immediately accosted by an angry knife wielding man in the simulated parking lot who was intent on killing me with a not so simulated knife and vehemently communicating that intent.  Using my lightning fast reflexes (ahem), I immediately kicked it into reverse, drawing one handed as I did so.  The front sight dropped nicely onto his chest and I touched ol' Betsy off. 

He dropped like a bag of wet cement.  Too easy.  Just too easy. 

I scanned the room after verifying he was down.  It was then I noticed I still had the packages in my right hand.  DOH!  Why not toss them in his path?  I certainly didn't need to have them in my hand.  Oh well.

Knowing that the instructor here is slightly devious and certainly sneaky, I sensed a trap.  It was too easy thus far.  I just KNEW something else was up.  I was on high alert.  The juices were flowing. 

So there I was kinda wedged into the corner near the door when someone began to open it.  I immediately turned and pointed at this new player in the scenario, standing less than an arm's length away. 

He identified himself as a cop.  I demanded, rather forcefully, to see a badge.  Having had classes here before, I DID NOT BELIEVE FOR A SECOND that this guy was a cop.  I wanted to see ID!  We went back and forth here a little bit.  Me, insisting on ID and him, insisting he was a cop.

Yeah, right.  I know you.  You're sneaky.

Not at all comfortable with my physical proximity to this "cop" I tried to open the distance between us.  Unfortunately some folding chairs jumped in my path (I believe they were intentionally left there as a hindrance), I got tangled up in them and looked down.  That's all it took. 

The "cop" used some kind of secret Jackie Chan move and slapped the muzzle of my gun aside and shot me through the door.  (There is some controversy here as he was using a 9mm and there is some doubt that the round would have penetrated the hollow core door.)  But being a good sport, I accepted the fact that I had once again, been shot and killed. 

The scenario obviously didn't go as planned.  Besides the moderately damaged door frame, I was supposed to be much further into the room, which would have allowed the "cop" to enter the room behind me to effect an arrest and otherwise gain control over the situation.  And then we would have seen if I could have responded coherently and communicated the appropriate information without saying "too much" to the responding officer.

There were five students in the class and we all got to run one scenario each.  All were intense and instructive.  It was interesting to witness how each student handled their problem.   Hint: "going to guns" isn't always the appropriate response.

We spent the majority of the day in class, discussing CCW related issues.  Topics included clothing choices, evaluating your lifestyle and appropriate use of lethal force.  We also got to play with all kinds of different types and styles of holsters and handguns.   Quite a bit of time was devoted to working on the drawstroke, using both hands, strong hand AND weak hand.

For the most part, I ran with an appendix IWB holster of some sort most of the day, which is something I have been considering.  It offers some definite advantages.  It's fast and weak handed drawing is MUCH easier IMHO vs my standard 8 o'clock IWB rig that I've been using for years.  The downside obviously with the appendix position, if you screw up and have an AD while holstering, you've REALLY screwed up and probably killed yourself.

This is a great class, like the other PRT classes I've attended.   I never fail to learn stuff, good stuff, at these classes, even though I routinely manage to get killed.  :)




"It is better to avoid than to run; better to run than to de-escalate; better to de-escalate than to fight; better to fight than to die. The very essence of self-defense is a thin list of things that might get you out alive when you are already screwed." – Rory Miller

Offline gsd

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Re: In Which I Get Killed Again (PRT CCW 101 Class AAR)
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2012, 12:40:16 PM »
So...was this a Simmunition class or laser class?
It is highly likely the above post may offend you. I'm fine with that.

Offline Chris Z

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Re: In Which I Get Killed Again (PRT CCW 101 Class AAR)
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2012, 12:42:46 PM »
Rumor has it there was a famous 1911 guy in this class, who took a liking to his new Tupperware equipment for the day  ;D

Offline Chris Z

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Re: In Which I Get Killed Again (PRT CCW 101 Class AAR)
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2012, 12:57:28 PM »
Another GREAT class by PRT. I highly recommend folks who CCW, no matter what your level of experience is. A lot of great info for people considering carrying concealed, and a great refresher for folks who have been through good training.

It is scary how many people take the state mandated training class, and then seek out NO further training. Some state CCW classes are taught well, some are not..... Whether you went through a good ccw class or a bare minimum class... GETTING MORE TRAINING is a absolutely necessary.

This is a great class that I recommend others seek out and learn from.


Lorimor did a good job describing the class above.... I will also add, they had us each work thru a different scenario. You cannot possibly train and practice for every scenario that "might" happen..... That is NOT what this class intends to do (train you for every scenario)... What it DOES do though is put you in a realistic, unknown scenario and you see how well you can handle it, tests your split second decision making, how well your equipment works, and if you have the right equipment.


Looking forward to taking a CCW 201 course and a Fundamentals class with PRT in 2013

Offline Lorimor

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Re: In Which I Get Killed Again (PRT CCW 101 Class AAR)
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2012, 01:02:48 PM »
So...was this a Simmunition class or laser class?

Neither one.  Everyone had a barrel blocker of some sort in their normal carry gun.  Yelling "BANG!" was optional.  :)
"It is better to avoid than to run; better to run than to de-escalate; better to de-escalate than to fight; better to fight than to die. The very essence of self-defense is a thin list of things that might get you out alive when you are already screwed." – Rory Miller

Offline Chris Z

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Re: In Which I Get Killed Again (PRT CCW 101 Class AAR)
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2012, 01:09:01 PM »
Or "bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang"

Offline NebraskaGunner

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Re: In Which I Get Killed Again (PRT CCW 101 Class AAR)
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2012, 01:29:33 PM »
Or "bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang"

LOL

Offline JTH

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Re: In Which I Get Killed Again (PRT CCW 101 Class AAR)
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2012, 07:59:30 PM »
The "cop" used some kind of secret Jackie Chan move and slapped the muzzle of my gun aside and shot me through the door.  (There is some controversy here as he was using a 9mm and there is some doubt that the round would have penetrated the hollow core door.)  But being a good sport, I accepted the fact that I had once again, been shot and killed. 

I will note for the record here that when I moved his gun aside, I brought my gun around the door and almost touched it to his chest before I said "bang."

Just wanted to clear that up.  :)

(I'm going to completely ignore the spurious lack-of-penetraqtion aspersions Lorimor just attempted to cast on the INCREDIBLY POWERFUL 9mm that I used.)

Someone else asked about Simunitions and such---for most of the class, people use their actual guns with visibly obvious practice barrels or barrel blockers (and a significant amount of other safety measures in place) from their actual carry holsters.

It is true that sometimes we use realistic-looking gas-powered AirSoft guns, for that loud-noise-and-wow-that-really-hurts feeling if you get shot.  We didn't happen to do so yesterday, and often in the CCW Lifestyles class we don't need it---people find the scenarios stressful enough.

The CQT class, however....that's another story, as Lorimor here has mentioned in the past, with appropriate pictures of his pain.   ;D 

The CCW 201 class (which is mostly scenario training for the entire time) does definitely include the Airsoft guns. 

Oh---yes, we did use a laser indicator to show that people had been suddenly made dead in a different scenario.  We use a SIRT training pistol---yesterday, our young female assistant instructor (playing the part of a Bad Person) happened to noticed that the Good Guy's attention had been distracted, and in the face of a gun actually pointed at her, simply pulled the gun and shot the poor guy four times before he noticed.  Learning occurred shortly thereafter.  :)  )

Glad you folks liked the class!  And I'll let everyone know when we get the CCW 201 course scheduled.

(And for other folks, yes, we will be having more CCW Lifestyles courses scheduled in the coming year.)

In the meantime, everyone who hasn't already taken it should sign up for Zeeb's Legal Aspects of Lethal Force class on Feb 16th.  Lots of good information about case law here in Nebraska regarding lethal force---and you NEED to know this stuff if you are going to CCW.

Saving your life with a CCW isn't enough.  You have to be able to keep yourself out of prison for the rest of your life afterward.
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Offline Lorimor

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Re: In Which I Get Killed Again (PRT CCW 101 Class AAR)
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2012, 09:26:01 PM »
It's worth the pain.  I get to wreck interior walls and doors and watch Glocks fly apart.  And I learn some neat stuff.

It's fun.  :)

Seriously, anyone who carries should take classes like this.   It will open your eyes to some stuff.  Reading about it and watching videos only goes so far. 
"It is better to avoid than to run; better to run than to de-escalate; better to de-escalate than to fight; better to fight than to die. The very essence of self-defense is a thin list of things that might get you out alive when you are already screwed." – Rory Miller

Offline Lorimor

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Re: In Which I Get Killed Again (PRT CCW 101 Class AAR)
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2012, 09:27:56 PM »
Rumor has it there was a famous 1911 guy in this class, who took a liking to his new Tupperware equipment for the day  ;D

Yeah, I'm thinking some things over. 
"It is better to avoid than to run; better to run than to de-escalate; better to de-escalate than to fight; better to fight than to die. The very essence of self-defense is a thin list of things that might get you out alive when you are already screwed." – Rory Miller

Offline OnTheFly

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Re: In Which I Get Killed Again (PRT CCW 101 Class AAR)
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2012, 09:57:45 PM »
Yeah, I'm thinking some things over. 


If you thought the Glock was ok, just try a tupperware gun that will actually fit your hand...like an Xdm.   ;D

Fly
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Offline JTH

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Re: In Which I Get Killed Again (PRT CCW 101 Class AAR)
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2012, 10:41:43 AM »
If you thought the Glock was ok, just try a tupperware gun that will actually fit your hand...like an Xdm.   ;D

Fly

...that is known to occasionally jam up when debris gets into the grip safety, where you can't even cycle the slide without pressing the grip safety, and which has yet to pass the testing process for any law enforcement department thus far?

Hm.....

I know people like 'em, but there is a reason why I suggest M&P and Glocks for polymer choices, and not others...

:)
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Offline OnTheFly

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Re: In Which I Get Killed Again (PRT CCW 101 Class AAR)
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2012, 12:59:03 PM »
...that is known to occasionally jam up when debris gets into the grip safety, where you can't even cycle the slide without pressing the grip safety, and which has yet to pass the testing process for any law enforcement department thus far?

Hm.....

I know people like 'em, but there is a reason why I suggest M&P and Glocks for polymer choices, and not others...

:)

That's ok.  It doesn't have to be an Xdm.  Note that I said "... try a tupperware gun that will actually fit your hand...".  I'm sure that a Glock fits the hands of some shooters perfectly, but IMHO some of the more ergonomic guns (M&P, XD, PX4, etc.) are much more likely to fit the vast majority of shooters hands.  The great thing about a Glock is that it is sturdy and dependable.  No doubt, but I've read a lot of praise for the XDm and other guns too.  Can you find something bad that someone has written about the Xdm?  Maybe you have even seen an issue first hand. I'm sure it is possible, but you can also find a story about any other gun...including the Glock.  In particular, the Glock "Ka-Boom" stories.  Do I believe that Glock has an inherent problem? Absolutely not.   With most of these reputations that guns obtain, there is likely much more to the story than "I was shooting it one day and it just blew up in my hands, so don't buy a Glock".  Those stories floating around wouldn't make me hesitate to own a gun that has such a strong reputation...if it only fit my hands.

One thing I like about some of the other plastic fantastics (maybe Glock has this feature with the Gen 4?) is that the magazine release can be on the right side of the gun.  I have such small hands that to push the magazine release with my right thumb takes a SIGNIFICANT shift of the gun in my hands.  With a right mag button I use my middle finger.

Glock may be the gun for you, but my point is that if you previously had an aversion to plastic guns, don't buy the first one that you shoot just because you had a revelation that plastic guns are now ok. It is possible that Lorimar did his shopping.  Regardless, this is not a slam on a great guy like Lorimar.  Do I think that Lorimar made a poor choice? Absolutely not! Glocks are great guns, and if it turns out to not be to his liking, he can always sell it for darn near what he paid. 

By the way Lorimar...if you are thinking about selling, i was looking at Glock 19s myself.   ;D

Fly
« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 04:06:25 PM by OnTheFly »
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Offline Neeco

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Re: In Which I Get Killed Again (PRT CCW 101 Class AAR)
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2012, 01:48:36 PM »
That's ok.  It doesn't have to be an Xdm.  Note that I said "... try a tupperware gun that will actually fit your hand...".  I'm sure that a Glock fits the hands of some shooters perfectly, but IMHO some of the more ergonomic guns (M&P, XD, PX4, etc.) are much more likely to fit the vast majority of shooters hands.  The great thing about a Glock is that it is reliable, sturdy and dependable.  No doubt, but I've read a lot of praise for the XDm and other guns too.  Can you find something bad that someone has written about the Xdm?  Maybe you have even seen an issue first hand. I'm sure it is possible, but you can also find a story about any other gun...including the Glock.  In particular, the Glock "Ka-Boom" stories.  Do I believe that Glock has an inherent problem? Absolutely not.   With most of these reputations that guns obtain, there is likely much more to the story than "I was shooting it one day and it just blew up in my hands, so don't buy a Glock".  Those stories floating around wouldn't make me hesitate to own a gun that has such a strong reputation...if it only fit my hands.

One thing I like about some of the other plastic fantastics (maybe Glock has this feature with the Gen 4?) is that the magazine release can be on the right side of the gun.  I have such small hands that to push the magazine release with my right thumb takes a SIGNIFICANT shift of the gun in my hands.  With a right mag button I use my middle finger.

Glock may be the gun for you, but my point is that if you previously had an aversion to plastic guns, don't buy the first one that you shoot just because you had a revelation that plastic guns are now ok. It is possible that Lorimar did his shopping.  Regardless, this is not a slam on a great guy like Lorimar.  Do I think that Lorimar made a poor choice? Absolutely not! Glocks are great guns, and if it turns out to not be to his liking, he can always sell it for darn near what he paid. 

By the way Lorimar...if you are thinking about selling, i was looking at Glock 19s myself.   ;D

Fly

Get out of here with your deductive reasoning...  ;D

Offline Lorimor

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Re: In Which I Get Killed Again (PRT CCW 101 Class AAR)
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2012, 04:59:44 PM »
No brand wars please.  I have an XD45 and a Walther PPQ in the vault right now.  I like them both for various reasons. 

I see lots and lots and lots of Glocks in use.  I see them used very, very well.  I see them function very, very, very well.  There's almost an infinite amount of stuff that can be done to a Glock.  For instance, there's an UNBELIEVABLE amount of aftermarket sights available for Glocks.  (There has to be.  PLASTIC sights on a combat handgun!?!?!) 

I have had very little first hand experience with Glocks other than my wife's G17.  The slide cuts my hand up.  The front sight sits about 4' high when I push it out until I crank my wrist downward. 

But there's this doo-dad out there, the Grip Force Adapter, that appears to rectify much of that. 

So what better way to test one out than to take the plunge?

It may surprise some here, but for years, anyone foolish enough to come to me for advice about what gun to carry, without hesitation I will direct them to the G19.  In my mind, it's a near perfect carry gun.  Lightweight, reliable, compact size, durable, high capacity, tolerant of marginal maintenance,  tolerant of harsh conditions and more than adequate accuracy.  They run "as is" and run "as is" very, very well. 

So I want to see if I can make one work for me.   I wouldn't mind nearly so much dropping a Glock on the pavement as I would one of my Wilsons.  I wouldn't mind nearly so much having a Glock impounded as I would one of my Wilsons.  And the Glock is lighter and has more BB's in the tank.  Modern 9mm ammo will do the job IF I do my job.

As some can attest, I've given Glockers (good naturedly of course) a lot of crap over the years (while they shoot circles around me.  How bright is that?), but the performance and characteristics of Glocks simply cannot be ignored. 

Maybe they've got something going? :)
« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 05:06:33 PM by Lorimor »
"It is better to avoid than to run; better to run than to de-escalate; better to de-escalate than to fight; better to fight than to die. The very essence of self-defense is a thin list of things that might get you out alive when you are already screwed." – Rory Miller

Offline JTH

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Re: In Which I Get Killed Again (PRT CCW 101 Class AAR)
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2012, 10:04:20 PM »
That's ok.  It doesn't have to be an Xdm. 

:)

I don't have issues with any of the polymer guns in general.   It is certainly true that a couple fit my hands much better than others, but there isn't anything wrong with Walther, Ruger (yes, I said it, the SR9 or SR9C is perfectly fine), M&P, XD/XDM, Glock, HK USP, HK P30, etc...

...and I believe that right up until we start talking about self-defense weapons

For me, a self-defense pistol needs to do two things:  be utterly reliable (within the bounds of realism), and keep shots within a 3" circle at 10 yards when I'm shooting it at speed.   My list of "it would ALSO be nice if it did/was this..." is much longer, but those two are required.

None of the guns on the list above would have any problem with the 3" at 10 yards.  Reliability-wise, though...there are some things that I just don't like quite as much.

The M&P and the Glock have passed a significant number of LEO departmental procurement tests.  This doesn't mean that the others aren't reliable, it just means that others haven't reached the level of reliability of those two.   And what with the backstraps available for those two, they can be made to fit (within reason) just about anyone's hand.  Does that make them optimal for everyone? Not at all.

It does (at least to my way of thinking) mean that no one is going to go badly wrong by choosing that route.

The XDs and the XDMs are fun to shoot, perfectly accurate, and in many ways, have a really good grip (especially for people with small hands).  They have, however, failed reliability tests with various LEO departments.  (Whether or not those reliability tests are in any way representative of actual carry issues is another story.)  That's not necessarily a deal-breaker for me, but it does influence me.

However, for me the deal-breaker was the grip safety.  If it merely was a grip safety (such as on a .45) that would be one thing.  But the fact that it completely locks up the gun (as in you can't even work the slide without having it pushed in) kills it for me.  If anything happens to that one little piece of plastic, your gun is suddenly an impact weapon.

I'm pretty good with impact weapons, actually, but I'd really prefer to not have to work that hard.  :)

Now---opinions vary.  And this is perfectly fine---after all, until the Gen 4 Glocks came out, Julie loved her XDs (and owned quite a few!).  We still have a couple, and they are fun to shoot.  Perfectly good gun---but I personally wouldn't use one for daily carry.

Other people certainly do, and I haven't heard of anyone getting killed because of it.  So, feel free to ignore what really is only my opinion.   :P
« Last Edit: December 12, 2012, 10:15:48 PM by jthhapkido »
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