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Author Topic: Better to Mind Your Own Business?  (Read 2487 times)

Offline bullit

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Better to Mind Your Own Business?
« on: April 06, 2013, 04:06:43 PM »
Claude Werner will discussing further next week on his site, but food for thought from his post on Facebook:

From my friend Greg Ellifritz:

"This is only a small part of the story...I will be writing it all up for my website on Monday. When shoplifter(female) is fighting with store loss prevention (in the middle of a busy road), she's yelling "rape"! A dude with a CCW permit jumps out of his car with a gun to 'save' her....first cop rolls up sees man and woman fighting in the middle of a 4 lane road and a dude with a gun circling them trying to get a shot....complete cluster[you know what]."

The dangers of 'intervention' are many. When we are defending ourselves or our loved ones, the chances we are misinterpreting the situation are pretty slim. As soon as someone starts to play Good Samaritan for an unknown person, things get a lot more dicey. At that point, they have entered the nebulous realm that police officers tread daily, to wit: "what exactly is going on here and what do I do about it?"

I'm going to loop this back to the 'safely and effectively' discussion. While I think most people are quite capable of protecting themselves and their families with little or no training, intervening in the affairs of others raises the exercise to a whole new level. The 'I can operate a toaster because I'm hungry' analogy no longer applies. It becomes more like 'can I bake a souffle in a wood fired oven for the first time I meet my future in-laws.' A much more involved process.

Offline NE Bull

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Re: Better to Mind Your Own Business?
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2013, 07:40:36 PM »
I have "What-if'd " these types of scenarios numerous times.
What I have come up with, you had better know, without a doubt, the situation at hand before involving yourself (pretty much good advice for life). Otherwise, the "Be a good witness and call 911" rules probably apply.
“It is not an issue of being afraid, It's an issue of not being afraid to protect myself.”
 Omaha Mayor Jean Stothert
 "A gun is a tool, Marian; no better or no worse than any other tool: an axe, a shovel or anything. A gun is as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that."  Shane

Offline SS_N_NE

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Re: Better to Mind Your Own Business?
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2013, 10:54:55 AM »
I used to teach self-defense related to open hand martial arts.

The best personal defense is risk avoidance. Placing yourself at risk is a decision to give up your initial chance of survival. Having developed some form of self defense (training or weapon) does not guarantee the outcome of the  risk you challenge.

Thinking that you can go where you please without risk just because you "carry a big stick" is poor survival thinking. Purposely going where you know their is risk is no longer survival, but instead looking for a fight. A lot of people struggle with this concept, but it ultimately comes down to recognizing that risk exists and anything that avoids risk is a decision unless that risk comes to you. 

As a Good Samaritan you give up survival when avoidance has been ignored. Or, in other words, your decision has changed your existence from self-defense to an agressor as you intend to use your form of self-defense to be used as an advantage in a situation. There is always that decision to determine how much you are willing to risk for another person. Self-preservation should be first including legal consequences of your decisions.

Offline CliffD

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Re: Better to Mind Your Own Business?
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2013, 11:40:18 AM »
I would think that a person would be able to understand that a woman yelling "Rape" near a busy road in front of an open store (assumed) that there is likely more to the story. I agree, calling 911 would be the best course of interaction. Now, if this same scenario took place in a more isolated area and a man was trying to force the woman into a car, well, that's a different matter. To draw or not would depend on the situation and the CCP holder.


Offline Hank

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Re: Better to Mind Your Own Business?
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2013, 12:51:32 PM »
I am going to go out on a limb here; I feel that a majority of CCP holders got the permit to protect themselves or family when there was no other option. Unfortunately there are probably going to be a extremely small percentage that are looking to be a `hero`.
I took the CC training shortly after a friend got his and this was a short time before the VonMaur incident. My friends GF, asked if they were there at the time would he have tried to stop the perp? His reply was something to the effect...him with a AK an me an my snubbie 38? No, he says, we would find a closet to hide in and if someone comes bustin` through the door, then they better be `sportin a badge`..or their `getting it`...something to that affect anyway.
I was very impressed with my CC instructors emphasis on `confrontation avoidance`.

Offline GreyGeek

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Re: Better to Mind Your Own Business?
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2013, 01:14:56 PM »
confrontation avoidance

That's my feeling, even if the perp  is shooting up a place that allows CCW, which is  doubtful because while they may be crazy they are not stupid.  History has proven they'll chose a "No Gun" place over any other.

I got my CHP  to protect against threats of a specific person, who hasn't been let out of prison, yet, but I carry anyway because of the times and the court's willingness to hand spank violent offenders or release them.  But, unless the perp  is shooting at me I am not going to shoot back because taking a handgun to a rifle fight is a bad idea, especially if you handgun has only 6+1, and 6 backing up.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 01:39:58 PM by GreyGeek »

Offline Ronvandyn

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Re: Better to Mind Your Own Business?
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2013, 01:16:41 PM »
I have "What-if'd " these types of scenarios numerous times.
What I have come up with, you had better know, without a doubt, the situation at hand before involving yourself (pretty much good advice for life). Otherwise, the "Be a good witness and call 911" rules probably apply.


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Offline sjwsti

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Re: Better to Mind Your Own Business?
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2013, 06:08:33 PM »
I have "What-if'd " these types of scenarios numerous times.
What I have come up with, you had better know, without a doubt, the situation at hand before involving yourself (pretty much good advice for life). Otherwise, the "Be a good witness and call 911" rules probably apply.

Completely agree.

But a mass shooting, to me anyway, is something very different. And not all of them happen in gun free zones.

The cry after a mass killing is always "If someone was there with a gun they could have stopped it!".

And yet there are CCW holders that, even if they were present at a mass killing, armed and possibly in a position to make a difference, admittedly wouldn't do anything to intervene....interesting.

Fortunately for the "I dont carry enough gun" crowd myself and like minded friends DO carry enough gun. How lucky do you feel that one of us will be around and able to do something while your hiding in that closet?

I attended a civilian Active Shooter/Terrorist Interdiction course several years ago instructed by Gabe Suarez. You want to learn how to react in an active shooter or terrorist incident? I highly recommend that class.

- Shawn

 

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Offline SS_N_NE

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Re: Better to Mind Your Own Business?
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2013, 07:02:10 PM »
Fortunately for the "I dont carry enough gun" crowd myself and like minded friends DO carry enough gun. How lucky do you feel that one of us will be around and able to do something while your hiding in that closet?

Apparently, I misunderstood the part in your CCW class where you indicated comments to your wife and son that your own survival would come first over theirs....

Offline Thanke

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Re: Better to Mind Your Own Business?
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2013, 07:09:58 PM »

And yet there are CCW holders that, even if they were present at a mass killing, armed and possibly in a position to make a difference, admittedly wouldn't do anything to intervene....interesting.

Fortunately for the "I dont carry enough gun" crowd myself and like minded friends DO carry enough gun. How lucky do you feel that one of us will be around and able to do something while your hiding in that closet?



I guess to each his own. Personally, My number one priority is the safety of my family. If that means engaging the bad guy to make them safe, I will. But I am not going to leave them to go find a bad guy and I am certainly not going to take them with me while looking for a bad guy.

After an incident I think I could look in the mirror every morning as long as I knew I did everything I could to protect my family, but if I lost them because I was looking for the bad guy, I could never forgive myself.

Offline sjwsti

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Re: Better to Mind Your Own Business?
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2013, 07:53:54 PM »
Apparently, I misunderstood the part in your CCW class where you indicated comments to your wife and son that your own survival would come first over theirs....

Not sure what you mean...my own survival is more important than my families? Im quite sure I never said that. Like any husband and father my families survival would come first.

We do have a family plan for these types of situations. In the case of an active shooter, if possible, I would stay and my family would escape and alert the authorities (In the case of the original posters scenario that plan is quite different). If escape isnt possible we stay and fight together.

Im not going to stand by and be a witness to mass murder. I have no interest in getting myself killed recklessly trying to stop it either. I willingly put my health and safety at risk on a regular basis at my job, to me this is no different. I have the mindset, training and the gear to minimize the risk as much as possible and try to make a difference. I couldnt live with myself if I didnt try. But thats just me.

- Shawn





 
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Offline HuskerXDM

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Re: Better to Mind Your Own Business?
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2013, 09:35:45 PM »
I have an experience that I share in my classes for this very discussion. 

Short version: I was in the mall with my 7 year old this past Christmas shopping season.  Sitting at the play area by Dillards/Yonkers and look up to see a man walking straight at me with both hands in his coat pockets.  Staring and not breaking eye contact.  No smile, no sign of recognition and not headed around me.  Several concerns there.... he's broken social norms with the extended eye contact and no smile or sign of recognition.  Both hands hidden in large, front coat pockets (a trench-coat sort of thing so the pockets are in the front and below hip level, so it looked odd).  Walking straight at me purposefully. Quiet so nobody else has noticed him as far as I know.

So the scenario that I present is this:  You're at the mall too and have gotten your CHP.  All you see is a man (me) with a gun  who has fired  shots and a man down on the ground.  People are running and screaming.  Do you have enough information to draw and fire?   (Hopefully you're saying 'no' right now.)

Here's what actually happened:  The guy got to about 15 feet away when I made eye contact the first time.  I tried to figure out why he might be staring at me... maybe he took a class with me, maybe a parent at my school.. .something that would explain away the danger.  But there was no sign of recognition from him (no smile, no "don't I know you from somewhere" look) so I started my planning.  (Way too late, by the way... he never broke stride or slowed down so now he's maybe 8-10 feet away.)  My son was out of reach, so retreat was not an option.  I kept eye contact and have him a pretty stern look as I turned to face him (I was sitting at the bar-stool type seats by the play area... the one on the south end).  I had a knife of my own, mace, and was armed with a handgun.  In my mind I had decided that if one of his hands came out of the pocket with anything in them I would draw.  The mall was full of people, so I was also concerned with misses if it came to that.  At this point he was close enough that I decided that I would assert myself by maintaining eye contact and verbally engaging him.  So.... I said, "W'sup?"  Yep.  You read that right.  That's the best I could come up with.  And I'll be darned, but it worked.  He immediately looked down and turned to move around me.  This put him on a path to go behind my back, so I turned and maintained my stare as we passed, giving me an 8-10 foot cushion.  I swiveled all the way around and kept watching until he got to the Younkers entrance, at which point he looked back at me and made brief eye contact then looked down again and kept walking.  All the time his hands were in his pockets.  I immediately got my son and we exited the mall (through a different exit) and left. 

Ok at this point I realize this isn't the short version.  Kudos to you if you're still reading.

The message I relay to my CHP students:  Unless you are rock-solid on your understanding of the scenario unfolding, you'd better be damn careful of your response.  If you draw and shoot me in the scenario above, you've shot the good guy.  The law may not prosecute you because with the info you had in that moment you believed you made the right decision and you got the judge/jury to agree, but you've SHOT THE GOOD GUY.   

This guy didn't look like a "bad guy."  He was dressed appropriately for the setting, clean shaven, nothing that raised my awareness of him except he made and maintained eye contact for longer than is socially normal for two dudes in the mall.   

I doubt anyone else noticed what happened in that 10 seconds or so, but I'm convinced I avoided some sort of violent encounter.

The master has failed more than the beginner has even tried.

Offline GreyGeek

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Re: Better to Mind Your Own Business?
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2013, 09:49:33 PM »
And yet there are CCW holders that, even if they were present at a mass killing, armed and possibly in a position to make a difference, admittedly wouldn't do anything to intervene....interesting.

Lot's of "IF"s.

Of course, in a gun free zone I wouldn't be carrying, so while fleeing ASAP I'd be calling 911.

In locations where  I can carry "legally", 2A  infringements  aside, unless the perp is shooting at or near me, I'd  be calling 911 while making a hasty retreat.  IF he/she is shooting near or at me, and assuming they aren't wearing body armor, I'd aim for the center of mass.  Wearing body armor means smaller targets: head, groin, knees, feet, or even the hands holding the weapon, but those are successively harder to hit, and with the excitement and adrenaline flowing, and assuming the range is 10 yrds or less, the odds are still in  favor of the guy with the  long gun.  But, maybe a shot or two to get the perp "off his game" so I can duck behind substantial cover or down a stairs, etc...  But who knows?  I may get in a lucky shot and take him out.   For my own defense my ranges will be within my home or near my car ... 5 or 10 yards. During my last session I  put 148 out of 150 rounds into the kill zone at ranges between 5 and 21 yards, and the other two were potentially incapacitating.

http://chronicle.com/blogs/conversation/2012/12/18/top-10-myths-about-mass-shootings/

The Brady Center defines  "Mass Shootings" as those involving 2 or more victims  over a period of 24 hours, as apposed to the FBI, which defines mass shootings as those with 4 or more unrelated victims at the same location  within  approximately the same time period. The Brady definition is self-serving because it allows them to include incidents where a distraught or crazy perp kills four of his family members, or kills two and injures at least  two more.
http://www.bradblog.com/?p=9781

Here's the FBI definition:
http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/serial-murder/serial-murder-1#two
Quote
Generally, mass murder was described as a number of murders (four or more) occurring during the same incident, with no distinctive time period between the murders. These events typically involved a single location, where the killer murdered a number of victims in an ongoing incident (e.g. the 1984 San Ysidro McDonalds incident in San Diego, California; the 1991 Luby’s Restaurant massacre in Killeen, Texas; and the 2007 Virginia Tech murders in Blacksburg, Virginia).

It also describes the law which "defines" serial murders,  but that law is specific to defining when the FBI can step in, not to define serial  murders in general.


From 1966 to 1994, when the assault weapon ban became law, 28 years, there were 19 "mass shootings" listed by Brady.  During the period of the assault weapons ban, 10 years,  there were 26 "mass shootings".  Since the assault weapons ban died 9 years ago there have been 27 "mass shootings".

Using the FBI definition there have been 36 mass shootings since 1966, an average of 3/4ths per year, or 3 every four years.

From 1994  the assault weapon ban had no effect on the number of "mass shootings", and one could claim that the  "Gun Free Zones" created in 1995 by the Safe Schools Act, and adopted by many well meaning but thoughtless business owners actually increased "mass shootings" because it created safe hunting reserves for the insane.

As far as taking "Active Shooter/Terrorist Interdiction" courses ...  using a simple average on the FBI count  there have been an average of 3  mass shootings every four years.   In a country the size of America I'd wager that your chances of being in range of a mass shooter on one of those three days are lower than that of winning the lottery, even if you only used the land areas encompassed by city and urban dwellers.

When I was flying for business purposes I decided to take instrument flight training, thinking it would increase my opportunities to fly myself during inclement weather.   After taking the training I realized that it would be useful for less than  10% of my flying, and that by changing my take off time I could avoid bad weather altogether.  IF I couldn't change the time then I'd drive the chicken hawk instead of flying the SkyHawk.   It takes a lot of flight practice to keep your instrument skills sharp.  Even then, the idea that you are "prepared" to fly in bad weather doesn't guarantee that any given trip into a glory hole won't get you killed regardless of how good your skills are.  Hail, ice, downdrafts and tornadic winds can overcome your skill set.  I also noticed, in my IFR trainer, the tendency to want to take on unnecessary challenges, as if the training made him invulnerable.   On my last training session with him he nearly got us both killed.

Likewise, "interdiction" courses may be good for law enforcement and security people who train with their weapon MUCH more often that I do, constantly rehearse such tactics,  and can cover a 3 second 5 shot group at 20 yards with the palm of their hand, but I will never train that much to get that quick and  accurate.  So, I won't be fooling myself into thinking that I can take on a psychotic shooter unless my back is against the wall and its fight or die.

Finally, I chose to get a CHP and ccw.  Others have that right too.  If they don't want to protect themselves, or they think relying on police who always arrive AFTER the mayhem is the safest thing to do, I won't argue with them nor assume any responsibility to protect them.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 09:56:15 PM by GreyGeek »

Offline sjwsti

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Re: Better to Mind Your Own Business?
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2013, 09:53:22 PM »
HuskerXDM, what an odd situation. Thanks for sharing it. Im in complete agreement that involving yourself in a conflict between strangers could turn out very badly.

I will never forget a story told to me by a patient years ago that we were transporting to a rehab facility. He witnesses a male beating the hell out of a female and tried to intervene. As soon as he did they both turned on him. The male ended up stabbing him multiple times. He suffered serious injuries and had a permenant disability as a result. He said he should have minded his own business and just called 911.

- Shawn
« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 09:58:35 PM by sjwsti »
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Offline Hank

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Re: Better to Mind Your Own Business?
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2013, 05:20:56 PM »
Some clarification for sjwsti; please understand about what I shared in the previous post, as being casual discussion by a couple of guys who had recently received their ccp`s. The point I meant to make was that the primary purpose (in our case) was for protection of ourselves and family. It is very hard to say what a person would do; sure, if you found yourself witness to a mass murder(active shooter) AND you were 100% sure AND you felt you could make a difference(successfully stop the madman), then by all means go for it.  Just way too many `what if` scenarios...FWIW..I never been one to cry, `if a armed citizen were there`...
In another of your post you mention; mindset, training, and gear...that right there is key. Not all of us have had training beyond our CC training and target practice, familiarization with our weapon. A person needs to know their capabilities.

Offline Jeepguy

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Re: Better to Mind Your Own Business?
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2013, 10:02:09 AM »
Shawn - that Active Shooter/ Interdiction class sounds like something that someone around here should be teaching. Hint Hint  That might mean more CCW holders would be better prepared to successfully get involved.

Offline sjwsti

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Re: Better to Mind Your Own Business?
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2013, 11:35:15 AM »
Shawn - that Active Shooter/ Interdiction class sounds like something that someone around here should be teaching. Hint Hint  That might mean more CCW holders would be better prepared to successfully get involved.

At 88 Tactical we are currently putting together a series of classes for our Primal Performance Series titled "Every Day Carry". They will be 3-4hrs long, in Omaha and we will use SIRT pistols for the scenarios. All of these aspects together will keep the cost to a bare minimum.

The first level is Every Day Carry/Shoot Dont Shoot. It will consist of a short classroom section going right into various scenarios designed to get you to think and problem solve. This class should be on our calendar within the week.

The second level currently under development is EDC/Citizen First Responder. You will learn basic trauma care and then get right into more scenarios.

We havent started on the third level yet......EDC/Active Shooter Response doesnt sound too bad.

- Shawn
"It's not what you know that will get you into trouble; it's what you know that isn't true"

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Offline Jeepguy

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Re: Better to Mind Your Own Business?
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2013, 12:11:28 PM »
Will there be a package discount? Sign up for the 4 part series and get a reduced rate? I think I am probably in either way!  Great way to augment training during the Ammo Shortage!

Offline Jeepguy

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Re: Better to Mind Your Own Business?
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2013, 02:16:41 PM »
I had to look up SIRT pistol. Then I decided to order one. Looks like I will be doing lots more dry fire than I used to.

Offline sjwsti

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Re: Better to Mind Your Own Business?
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2013, 02:50:02 PM »
I had to look up SIRT pistol. Then I decided to order one. Looks like I will be doing lots more dry fire than I used to.

Its an excellent training tool. I had the chance to meet Mike Hughes, the inventor, he came to an 88 Tactical Instructor train up and schooled us on its versatility. We bought several and use them regularly.

- Shawn 
"It's not what you know that will get you into trouble; it's what you know that isn't true"

www.88tactical.com