Author Topic: Pulled over by Nebraska State Patrol (Read 7728 times)

2guns · « **Reply #20 on:** April 25, 2013, 07:57:15 PM »

This is about illegal search of a serial # on a firearm nothing more nothing less. 90% of the time you know if you are getting pulled over and like I said putting your firearm on the dash would no way even be noticed or I would leave it between the seat where it is also clearly visible. In 20+ years of carrying I have never had an issue with Leo. I also know that my pistol is not stolen but what would happen if the Leo transposed # and it came back stolen. I was trying to get it out that we as law abiding gun owners need to stick together and ensure that our firearms rights are respected by Leo in Nebraska if we don't they will simple be able to stop us because they want to and we just through away our 4th amendment rights.

just_me_mongo · « **Reply #21 on:** April 28, 2013, 04:53:48 PM »

**This is just my opinion. I don't think there was any reason to run the serial number on your gun. I am not a lawyer, or an officer; not by any means.

I thought that there has to be probable cause...If you were not suspected of any crime - there was no cause to run the serial number.

The issue was the license plate - not your gun.

That said, to me, this was a violation of your privacy.

2guns · « **Reply #22 on:** April 28, 2013, 06:03:50 PM »

Quote from: just_me_mongo on April 28, 2013, 04:53:48 PM

**This is just my opinion. I don't think there was any reason to run the serial number on your gun. I am not a lawyer, or an officer; not by any means.

I thought that there has to be probable cause...If you were not suspected of any crime - there was no cause to run the serial number.

The issue was the license plate - not your gun.

That said, to me, this was a violation of your privacy.

.

Thank you it seems you are one of the few that grasp the nature of this situation. Again I say we as Nebraska fire arms owners need to stick together not tear each other down and say well if you don't have anything to hide what's the big deal.

JTH · « **Reply #23 on:** April 28, 2013, 07:06:08 PM »

Quote from: sidearm1 on April 22, 2013, 12:53:17 PM

taking possession of weapon, search on serial number, RRS 29-829. Offense, operating motor vehicle without front license plate RRS 60-3,100.

Thinking about this again, and taking a look at what you cited, I don't see anything there about running the serial number on the gun. Temporarily confiscating, it, yes (that's common and well-documented by law) but running a serial number check---don't see it.

On further thought---while the police officer can indeed take the weapon (for the officer's safety) I think that I actually agree that running a search on the weapon itself isn't actually covered by the law. Whether or not I think it is a big deal doesn't change the fact that inspecting the firearm and running information on it is NOT covered in this situation.

The person was not held on RAS, there was no probable cause, the person was OCing legally. As such, the officer may hold the weapon for safety until the contact is finished. However, I don't think I've ever seen any justification for keeping the firearm, inspecting it (you have to, to read the serial number) and running a check on that specific firearm.

Anyone know any legal justification for this?

sidearm1 · « **Reply #24 on:** April 28, 2013, 09:19:49 PM »

I know I shouldn't but:

29-829 the pertinent section: "If the peace officer finds such a weapon or any other thing the possession of which may constitute a crime, he may take and keep it until the completion of questioning, at which time he shall either return it, if lawfully possessed, or arrest such person. For purposes of this section, peace officer shall include credentialed conservation officers of the Game and Parks Commission."

What I have been told by LEOs, the lawfully possessed is where they are gong to run the 10-29 (NCIC) information. This is one way that they prove it is lawfully possessed, and that it wasn't stolen or reported lost or missing. They will also run a 10-39 (triple I) info on the driver to see if there are any restrictions, especially in Omaha and Lincoln where city ordinances are stricter than statewide.

Now I will let the matter go.

rudy · « **Reply #25 on:** April 28, 2013, 09:38:19 PM »

IANAL, but I would consider the LEO running the serial number of your pistol to be in a grey area. I think it is an illegal search under the 4th amendment, but there could be an argument made that the serial number of the firearm was in "plain view" (depending on its location, of course--a s&w revolver with stocks over the butt would preclude this) and would thereby be fair game for a check through the database.

As established by RRS 29-829, a LEO can take possession of a firearm during questioning, the line, I think, is whether or not reading the serial number constitutes an additional search. In the case of Arizona v. Hicks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona_v._Hicks), LEOs entered an apartment after a shooting and saw expensive stereo equipment. One of the officers moved the stereo equipment to find the serial number and record it. The stereo was stolen, but the evidence was thrown out because it was an illegal search. The officer's entry into the apartment was lawful given the emergency presented by the shooting, but the Supreme Court ruled that moving the stereo equipment to find the serial number was an additional and illegal search as there was no warrant and the search of the stereo was unrelated to the reason for which the police were present.

There is a thread on another forum on which a poster suggested placing black tape over the serial number so that it would no longer be in plain view. He went so far as to contact the BATF to make sure that placing black tape over the serial number wouldn't be considered defacing, removing or altering the serial number, which would be in violation of federal law. The BATF responded that black tape over the serial number would not be a violation of federal law. http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/general-firearm-discussion/148688-placing-black-tape-over-serial-number-federal-violation-print.html

Ultimately, i think the question is whether or not the serial number being in plain view constitutes an additional search or not. I guess you could place black tape over the serial, and if it is removed, try to be a test case?

just_me_mongo · « **Reply #26 on:** April 28, 2013, 10:07:10 PM »

To quote Sidearm1:

" 'I know I shouldn't but:

29-829 the pertinent section: 'If the peace officer finds such a weapon or any other thing the possession of which may constitute a crime, he may take and keep it until the completion of questioning, at which time he shall either return it, if lawfully possessed, or arrest such person. For purposes of this section, peace officer shall include credentialed conservation officers of the Game and Parks Commission.' "

This is a good point that Sidearm1 brings up. Let me refer to this specific section:

If the peace officer finds such a weapon or any other thing the possession of which may constitute a crime...

He was pulled over for a license plate issue = traffic infraction.

Open carry = legal in the state of NE (not legal in certain cities in NE)

There was no crime - no crime had taken place.

My belief is that the LEO had no cause/right/reason to run the serial number.

Again, I think is a valid point that Sidearm1 brings up. I am not a lawyer but I am just reading it for what I see.

Bucket · « **Reply #27 on:** April 29, 2013, 08:43:41 AM »

Anyone have any LEO contacts? I'm sure the procedures differ between jurisdictions, but I'd be curious to see if any Police departments and Sheriffs have any published guidelines, procedures, or specific training on an issue like this.

That's not to say the procedures would be constitutionally sound, but it makes me wonder if the guy was acting as he was trained or working under his own initiative.

2guns · « **Reply #28 on:** May 02, 2013, 11:49:11 PM »

I think the guy was just being big bad Barney fife. I did call the state patrol head quarters and complain but I'm sure that got filed in the trash. We do however learn from these experiences and begin to flex our constitutional rights. I'm just saying more of us need to do it so Leo don't even give that firearm on the dash a second thought, I know the game wardens that have checked me for fishing license have never asked about my firearm while fishing in July. That's the way it should be!

shovelhead69 · « **Reply #29 on:** May 17, 2013, 03:08:50 PM »

You have committed no crime by open carrying in your vehicle and contrary to the "reasonable suspicion or probable cause" comment owning/possessing a firearm is NOT RS or PC! Therefore no he should not have ran the serial number but makes me wonder exactly how you worded the custody of your firearm to him?Yes, some depts have a database that they record all contacted serial numbers and attach to each individual's log. Black tape over serial number is legal and not PC RS.

A police officer will do any and all things with or without your help to make an arrest and generate revenue.

Gary · « **Reply #30 on:** May 17, 2013, 04:42:15 PM »

Has anyone thought of placing the unloaded gun in a locking bank bag? That does a couple things. It gives control over the handgun to the officer, without giving up control of the handgun from the owner. I believe the main emphasis of the CHP statutes where an officer or EMT personnel may take possession of your firearm, is for public safety. The public is perfectly safe while your gun is locked away in this type of bag.

http://www.amazon.com/MMF-Industries-Security-Valuables-233110808/dp/B001C8HER6/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1368826695&sr=8-3&keywords=Locking+bank+bag

shovelhead69 · « **Reply #31 on:** May 17, 2013, 09:31:00 PM »

Interesting to say the least. I dont see why the firearm would have to be unloaded though. If they ask for it, slip it in the bag and snap the ready and waiting lock into place and hand it over. Nothing wrong with that.

SS_N_NE · « **Reply #32 on:** May 17, 2013, 10:18:52 PM »

Quote from: Gary on May 17, 2013, 04:42:15 PM

Has anyone thought of placing the unloaded gun in a locking bank bag?

Lacking knowledge on this: Appears the firearm just became "concealed" (possibly without permit?). Also seems suspious to mask a firearm this way when a LEO is present.

shovelhead69 · « **Reply #33 on:** May 17, 2013, 10:35:22 PM »

One thing I see on this forum is a huge amount of people that are scared to pass gas in front of a leo. And that ladies and gentleman is what scares me the most about our modern society! I men come on, any given day you see a patrol car driven 5mph under the posted speed limit and the 20 cars driving slower than him for fear of?

??

The best thing you can do is educate your mind and surely your ass will follow it free and clear from any self imposed handcuffing.

unfy · « **Reply #34 on:** May 17, 2013, 11:05:32 PM »

Quote from: shovelhead69 on May 17, 2013, 10:35:22 PM

One thing I see on this forum is a huge amount of people that are scared to pass gas in front of a leo. And that ladies and gentleman is what scares me the most about our modern society! I men come on, any given day you see a patrol car driven 5mph under the posted speed limit and the 20 cars driving slower than him for fear of???

The best thing you can do is educate your mind and surely your ass will follow it free and clear from any self imposed handcuffing.

Part of it is seeing LEO reaction to firearms throughout youtube etc...

Part of it is just attempting to avoid having to deal with the situation...

I personally don't ever take the weapon out of the holster unless storing in seat lock box or some very unusual circumstance (see some of the reloading clinic stuff). And when around LEO I'm just aware of body language and hand positioning to avoid coming off as threatening or similar. The few times I've had official contact with LEO have all gone smoothly. A polite and friendly attitude with a touch of respect goes a long way

Gary · « **Reply #35 on:** May 17, 2013, 11:24:05 PM »

Quote from: SS_N_NE on May 17, 2013, 10:18:52 PM

Lacking knowledge on this: Appears the firearm just became "concealed" (possibly without permit?). Also seems suspious to mask a firearm this way when a LEO is present.

This was in response to folks not wanting their gun serial number relinquished. I would think this would set off less red flags than placing tape over serial numbers.

You would have to have a CHP, or no access to a key for the bag. A pocket knife in your pocket, would be access to the bag, so I would not suggest doing this without a CHP, and your second approved photo ID.

I could care less about having Gov know my gun serial number. I fear someone not checked out with my handgun, unloading it. What if he Negligent Discharges my gun, and puts a round in his leg, arm, hand or right between the eyes. His brethren rolling up to that stop, are not going to swarm friendly.

If someone were to try the bank bag idea, Bag the gun before he walks up, tell the puzzled LEO, as you hand him the locked bag, you are concerned with his safety, and you will not allow him to handle your gun unless he wants to meet at the gun range on his day off, and you can check him out on it. This will work best if you show him your NRA Chief Range Safety Officer ID.

I do not want to be the first one to try it, but it would make for an interesting forum thread. I will seek out a LEO friend, Chief Of Police, retired, and ask him what he thinks of the idea.

Gary · « **Reply #36 on:** May 17, 2013, 11:29:03 PM »

Quote from: shovelhead69 on May 17, 2013, 10:35:22 PM

One thing I see on this forum is a huge amount of people that are scared to pass gas in front of a leo. And that ladies and gentleman is what scares me the most about our modern society! I men come on, any given day you see a patrol car driven 5mph under the posted speed limit and the 20 cars driving slower than him for fear of???

The best thing you can do is educate your mind and surely your ass will follow it free and clear from any self imposed handcuffing.

I agree on the you tube comment. Some of those cops are wound up like cheap watches.

The ones I know, and I am friends with several, are good people. Even the ones with sidelines we could not do, are friendly.

shovelhead69 · « **Reply #37 on:** May 18, 2013, 10:15:38 AM »

JTH · « **Reply #38 on:** May 18, 2013, 12:23:50 PM »

Quote from: Gary on May 17, 2013, 11:24:05 PM

If someone were to try the bank bag idea, Bag the gun before he walks up, tell the puzzled LEO, as you hand him the locked bag, you are concerned with his safety, and you will not allow him to handle your gun unless he wants to meet at the gun range on his day off, and you can check him out on it. This will work best if you show him your NRA Chief Range Safety Officer ID.

You have got to be kidding.

patrickdm · « **Reply #39 on:** May 19, 2013, 03:02:28 PM »

There was a time that I wouldn't have had a problem allowing law enforcement to know the serial numbers of my firearms. I wouldn't have given it a second thought. I wouldn't have cared if local law enforcement knew what guns I owned. Sadly that time is gone.

With the current political atmosphere I will fight tooth and nail to keep anyone from knowing what firearms I own. The only people that have a right to know are me and my kids who will someday own them.

I have no idea what I would have done in the OP's circumstances and I hope I never have to find out. After the fact I believe I would talk with my local state representative and perhaps a lawyer to see if I had any options.