General Categories > Carry Issues
Carry options for my 18 year old heading to UNL
Hank:
--- Quote from: OleSharky on May 22, 2013, 10:00:09 AM ---I don't know who you are jthhapkido, but that was a great response, and I'm not easily impressed!
--- End quote ---
I`ll have to 2nd that.. ;D
Except.., hey wait a minute..I might fit a couple of those descriptions :laugh:
That last paragraph was golden!
rudy:
The UNL weapons storage policy has been listed already, but here is the weapons policy in general (bolding by me):
--- Quote from: UNL Weapons Policy link = [url=http://police.unl.edu/policies/weapons-policy ---http://police.unl.edu/policies/weapons-policy[/url]]
Possession of dangerous weapons - concealed or unconcealed - on University property, on the worksite, in University vehicles, or in personal vehicles when on University property shall be a violation of UNL policy. A dangerous weapon shall include guns, knives, explosives, or any other device defined by statute or as determined by the University, which in the manner used or intended is capable of producing death, harm to person or property, or bodily injury. Violation of this policy shall make the offender subject to appropriate disciplinary or legal action.
This policy shall not apply to: a) students, faculty and staff when in direct transport of dangerous weapons between off-campus and weapons storage at University Police; and b) members of athletic teams who train and use firearms as a part of their competition in the University's rifle range, or in direct transport between firearms training facilities and authorized weapons storage facilities; c) authorized UNL Police personnel; d) law enforcement officers and security personnel working directly with UNL Police and acting in their official capacity for purposes of canying out work responsibilities; e) persons authorized by the facility administrator for IANR units to use and store dangerous weapons consistent with the Weapons/Hunting Policy of IANR as it applies to IANR research sites located outside the city limits of Lincoln, Nebraska.
In order to maintain and protect the health and safety of UNL property or persons on UNL property, persons who are neither UNL employees nor students who are found to be in possession of a dangerous weapon on UNL property may be subject to immediate seizure of the weapon by the University of Nebraska Police Department and removal from campus. Seized property not held as evidence in an investigation will be returned to the person upon exiting UNL property.
--- End quote ---
So, in other words, everything is a weapon.
I'm a graduate student at UNL and I'd like it if CHP's were valid on campus, but as we all know, they're not. Since I can't carry legally on campus, I just use my most important tool (which has been mentioned previously): my brain. My life as a graduate student is probably quite different than what your son will experience given that I don't live in the dorms on campus, don't have to attend classes in multiple buildings across campus, etc. I think situational awareness is key, really. Whenever I'm in a classroom (or any room, really), I look to see where all the exits are and try to seat myself such that I can see all the entrances and keep my back to a wall. I'm sure that many of you do this, too. This can be tricky to do when there are a lot of other students around taking the "good" seats (most of the time these seats are in the back of the room), but if I arrive early to a class, I can usually find a seat that fulfills my criteria.
I try to keep fairly regular hours, but in the past they have been somewhat erratic. I've had a number of late nights here. I can tell you that the City Campus is rather poorly lit. Many of the sidewalks are quite dark at night. A good flashlight has been mentioned already--I would second the suggestion of getting a good one. You mention you have a surefire--I have a few of them too. They make good lights, but they're kind of expensive for the performance you get, in my opinion. I've broken a few of them and they've always been good about replacing things (even when it was clearly my fault that the light broke), but I think you can get better lights for the same amount of money. I haven't kept up with the custom light scene for a while, but a good resource is candlepowerforums.com. The last light I bought about a year and a half ago was an aluminum Tri-EDC from Mac's Customs (http://www.macscustoms.com/0ma188.web.officelive.com/TriEDC.html). It's on the same price scale as a surefire ($200), but the performance blew my E1B (predecessor to your EB1) out of the water while sacrificing some runtime, but gaining rechargeable cells instead of primaries, and it's smaller than my E1B. There are probably better lights out there for that kind of money if you're interested, since mine is a 2 year old design. LED technology has been progressing quite rapidly.
--- Quote from: jthhapkido on May 22, 2013, 09:01:21 AM ---This is similar to pocket carry for guns. If you pocket carry, chances are your draw is measured in a not-small number of seconds. This means that in a vast majority of situations you will not have time to access your weapon.
Most people won't acknowledge the above, because "I've always carried this way, and it has always worked for me" where the phrase "worked for me" means "nothing has ever happened to me."
That is called talisman thinking, and I strongly suggest people knock it off. Having a self-defense tool does not magically create a force field that keeps bad guys away. HAVING THE TOOL doesn't reduce your chances of assault at all. However, since the chances of getting attacked ARE really small, many people carry various self-defense tools in non-optimum ways with non-realistic training and expectations, and it works completely well for them, because they never get attacked.
This doesn't mean it is a bright idea.
--- End quote ---
I know this is a bit of a side-step to the topic, but why do you equate pocket carry with such talisman thinking? I pocket carry an airweight J-frame regularly. I practice drawing from my pocket just like I would any other carry method. Sure, if you're starting from your hand outside the pocket, it's not really all that fast, but if you already have your hand in your pocket gripping the weapon, it's not too bad. I pay attention to my surroundings, if I feel uncomfortable or I think I see something coming, I can rest my hand in my pocket with a full grip on my revolver, ready to draw if necessary and everyone around me is none the wiser. I think that's a HUGE upside to pocket carry that you neglect to consider. Will I be able to access my weapon in every situation (for example sitting down), always seeing what's coming because I pay attention to my surroundings? Of course not, no--I can't see everything. For me, pocket carry is a good balance between convenience and preparedness for most situations. If I felt I really needed a gun to go somewhere--I wouldn't go. If I had no choice and had to go, I'd take a long gun and hopefully some friends with long guns, too.
You say that many people carry in non-optimum ways--of course they do, OWB (or whatever you consider "optimum") likely isn't practical for every day to day CHP'er, me included. Sometimes I'll carry IWB, but one of the most important things to me when carrying is to stay concealed and if I'm doing something where I'll be bending over or crouching, etc., and my shirt will ride up over my weapon, I'll pocket carry instead. I know that open carry is legal, but I don't care to advertise, and in addition, very few people know that I have a CHP. I don't share it with my friends, coworkers or neighbors--it's none of their business.
In short, does pocket carry have its shortcomings? Of course. Is there one carry method that will work perfectly in any situation? Probably not.
JTH:
--- Quote from: rudy on May 23, 2013, 11:12:59 AM ---[snip]
A good flashlight has been mentioned already--I would second the suggestion of getting a good one. You mention you have a surefire--I have a few of them too. They make good lights, but they're kind of expensive for the performance you get, in my opinion. I've broken a few of them and they've always been good about replacing things (even when it was clearly my fault that the light broke), but I think you can get better lights for the same amount of money.
--- End quote ---
I'm a fan of $35 to $50 lights, because I bash them around a lot and use them all of the time---so when I wreck one, I don't feel bad about dumping it and getting another one. Two of my favorites are:
Streamlight Polytac LED light: http://www.lapolicegear.com/streamlight-polytac-led-flashlight.html
5.11 ATAC A1: http://www.lapolicegear.com/511-atac-a1-flashlight.html
$35 and $50, 100 to 130 lumens, easy to replace standard batteries (for each type), tough case, LEDs, nicely hand-sized, and if you drop one down a well, life will go on. Buy a bunch, stick one in a pocket of each coat you own, stick one in your glove compartment, and have two on your dresser so you always remember to stick one in your pocket each day.
If you absolutely MUST stick with Surefire, you can spend $66 on something that is more than twice as bright---but I'm not really sure you can blind someone more than once.
Surefire G2X polymer: http://www.lapolicegear.com/sf-g2x-c-320-tac.html
--- Quote ---I know this is a bit of a side-step to the topic, but why do you equate pocket carry with such talisman thinking?
--- End quote ---
Before we go on, I should note that I didn't equate it directly. The "talisman thinking" was more from:
--- Quote from: ME ---"I've always carried this way, and it has always worked for me" where the phrase "worked for me" means "nothing has ever happened to me."
That is called talisman thinking, and I strongly suggest people knock it off.
--- End quote ---
That being said, I do think that pocket carry is non-optimal. Sometimes, for some people, it might be necessary, but that doesn't actually make it better. It just happens to be better than not having a gun at all.
--- Quote --- I pocket carry an airweight J-frame regularly. I practice drawing from my pocket just like I would any other carry method. Sure, if you're starting from your hand outside the pocket, it's not really all that fast, but if you already have your hand in your pocket gripping the weapon, it's not too bad. I pay attention to my surroundings, if I feel uncomfortable or I think I see something coming, I can rest my hand in my pocket with a full grip on my revolver, ready to draw if necessary and everyone around me is none the wiser. I think that's a HUGE upside to pocket carry that you neglect to consider. Will I be able to access my weapon in every situation (for example sitting down), always seeing what's coming because I pay attention to my surroundings? Of course not, no--I can't see everything. For me, pocket carry is a good balance between convenience and preparedness for most situations. If I felt I really needed a gun to go somewhere--I wouldn't go. If I had no choice and had to go, I'd take a long gun and hopefully some friends with long guns, too.
--- End quote ---
Sounds like you have actually put thought (and practice) into it, which puts you ahead of a lot of people. As such, I'm not going to tell you that you are wrong.
Here's my thoughts, though:
1) Pants pocket, or coat pocket? If a coat pocket, one assumes you never take off the coat, since you don't want a gun out of your control---so why not wear an IWB since the coat will cover it? If a pants pocket---HOW?
Seriously, I want to know how. Even wearing baggy cargo pants, there is no way I can get a j-frame into a front pocket without making it look ridiculous. And if I put my hand on the gun, I am obviously grabbing something in my pocket, which looks silly. Drawing is adequate, IF I already have my hand on the gun and I am sitting/standing such that the draw stroke is aligned with the pocket opening, but even so it is only fast because my hand is on the gun.
2) Most of the time, I can't have my hands in my pockets. As such, a draw from the pocket in almost every situation will be extremely slow, as I can't start with my hand on the gun. (Speaking of---what's your draw time? I'm not asking for comparison's sake, and you don't actually have to answer---but do you know your draw time? That gives you an idea of the distance range necessary for effective use.) That's me, though. Maybe your pockets and your practice make you faster, and maybe you can have your hand on your gun a larger percentage of the time.
In general, though, I don't like having to rely on the idea that my hand has to be on the gun to realistically be able to access it in time.
3) For me, pocket carry isn't comfortable at all. A chunk of metal on the outside of my leg (assuming a pants pocket) that swings around (because if the pocket is too tight for the gun to move, it is too tight to draw unless the draw direction and pocket opening are perfectly aligned) just isn't comfortable. If I'm wearing an untucked polo, or a jacket, or a sweatshirt, then IWB is simply going to be more comfortable, and overall, faster in acquisition and use. If I have to tuck in a dress shirt or something, a tuckable holster is similar, and the draw really isn't any slower because either way I still have to lift the shirt.
I'm 5'8" (yeah, I'm short) and 165. And I carry a G17 with no issues throughout the year. Obviously, it is easier in winter, but in summer with the right holster, I have no problems concealing in a short-sleeved shirt and shorts. FOR ME, the difference in comfort level, ease of access from any position with either hand, and the weapon itself seem to be a much better choice than a 5-shot j-frame from a pocket.
Now, that's me. For you, it may not work out that way. But...
....what percentage of the time when other people are around is your hand actually on the gun?
....and if your hand is not on the gun, what is your actual draw time?
....and what is it from sitting, standing, or knocked on the floor?
(I note that I think everyone should know the answers to the last two questions for their particular carry mode.)
I will say that in winter, if I have to run outside for something really quickly (as in "less than 10 minutes away from my house"), I slip a j-frame into a Nemesis pocket holster in my winter coat, and away I go. In my opinion, this is a lesser option compared to my normal carry---but in my judgement/value system, I call it adequate for short amounts of time in specific circumstances. BUT I note that in those cases, it really IS in a pocket I can draw from no matter where I land, and I can keep my hand on it at all times because it is cold in winter and everyone has their hands in their pockets.
Sounds like I'm rationalizing, doesn't it? Well, perhaps I am. :) But I do it anyway, though not very often.
--- Quote ---You say that many people carry in non-optimum ways--of course they do, OWB (or whatever you consider "optimum") likely isn't practical for every day to day CHP'er, me included. Sometimes I'll carry IWB, but one of the most important things to me when carrying is to stay concealed and if I'm doing something where I'll be bending over or crouching, etc., and my shirt will ride up over my weapon, I'll pocket carry instead.
--- End quote ---
One of the reasons I carry AIWB. For me, standard 4-5 o'clock IWB prints like you wouldn't believe. Either I've never found a holster that works for me, or I have a weird body shape (you never know!) but IWB just doesn't fly for me. With AIWB, once I found a holster type that worked, I can carry, bend over forward, bend to the sides, stretch up into the air---and it doesn't print nor does it dig into me.
--- Quote ---In short, does pocket carry have its shortcomings? Of course. Is there one carry method that will work perfectly in any situation? Probably not.
--- End quote ---
I'll agree with that. And like I said, it appears that you have actually thought and it, and practiced. For you, that really may be the only reasonable solution. And it is better than not carrying.
That being said, you might try AIWB sometime...
With respect to talisman thinking---there are a LOT of people out there who got their CCW permit, bought a tiny Ruger LCP in .380, stick it in a pocket holster each day, and call that good. They have no idea what it will take to draw and use it, they haven't practiced, they haven't even checked to make sure that the holster will stay in the pocket when the gun comes out---but they are All Good, because the gun will keep them safe.
That's the type of pocket carry I was talking about, for talisman thinking. :)
JTH:
--- Quote from: GreyGeek on May 22, 2013, 09:59:29 AM ---Excellent comment!
[snip]
P.S. -- I reviewed some of your previous posts. You are an instructor, right? Do you offer classes?
--- End quote ---
Glad people thought the post was useful.
I am an instructor, yes, and I do offer classes of various types, from shooting skills to CCW to CQT to defensive tactics. Matter of fact, we have a Defensive Tactics class coming up in July...
:)
If anyone is interested, we are Precision Response Training, and our website is:
http://precisionresponse.4t.com
I normally post info about classes over in the Firearms Training subforum. ---And we've got a "My Ops are Blacker Than Your Ops" defensive tactics seminar/fun shoot this Saturday, where we still have two slots left for people who are interested...
http://nebraskafirearms.org/forum/index.php/topic,8905.msg63063.html#msg63063
rudy:
--- Quote from: jthhapkido on May 23, 2013, 01:36:51 PM ---1) Pants pocket, or coat pocket? If a coat pocket, one assumes you never take off the coat, since you don't want a gun out of your control---so why not wear an IWB since the coat will cover it? If a pants pocket---HOW?
Seriously, I want to know how. Even wearing baggy cargo pants, there is no way I can get a j-frame into a front pocket without making it look ridiculous. And if I put my hand on the gun, I am obviously grabbing something in my pocket, which looks silly. Drawing is adequate, IF I already have my hand on the gun and I am sitting/standing such that the draw stroke is aligned with the pocket opening, but even so it is only fast because my hand is on the gun.
--- End quote ---
When I pocket carry, it's either in a pants pocket (primarily) or a jacket pocket (less frequent). Like you say, the pocket must be large and easily accessible--if I choose to pocket carry, I'll wear pants that have a large pocket opening, usually a baggier-cargo-type pant. Sure, there's a bulge there, but the pocket holster breaks up the outline so it doesn't look like a gun, more like a thick wallet. Anyways, it's not like people stare at other people's pockets. Occasionally, I'll pocket carry in a jacket pocket for a quick trip to the store or something, or while riding motorcycle. If on a motorcycle, I'll zip the pocket shut--trying to shoot from a moving vehicle that can outrun most cars on the road seems a bit silly to me (I've had this argument on another forum--some people seem to think that you should be prepared to shoot from a moving motorcycle, I think they're crazy). I happened to crash a motorcycle while carrying IWB (no jacket, what a mistake!) and when I came to, the pistol and my spare mag were in the ditch. If I would've been wearing a jacket, it may have turned out differently, but since then, I've favored zipping a pistol into my pocket where it will stay put.
--- Quote from: jthhapkido on May 23, 2013, 01:36:51 PM ---2) Most of the time, I can't have my hands in my pockets. As such, a draw from the pocket in almost every situation will be extremely slow, as I can't start with my hand on the gun. (Speaking of---what's your draw time? I'm not asking for comparison's sake, and you don't actually have to answer---but do you know your draw time? That gives you an idea of the distance range necessary for effective use.) That's me, though. Maybe your pockets and your practice make you faster, and maybe you can have your hand on your gun a larger percentage of the time.
--- End quote ---
I don't feel awkward with my hands in my pockets. Of course I don't keep my hands in my pockets all the time, but coupled with situational awareness, I think it's a decent carry method. I don't know my draw times for starting inside/outside the pocket. I don't have a shot timer and I don't compete. I'd like to get into IDPA in the future (in addition to further training), but as a grad student, I'm kind of strapped for cash. Besides, I'd probably get laughed at for bringing an airweight J-frame to a match. I have one other pistol (colt commander) but it isn't trustworthy. It's been back to colt for some issues and I haven't run it through the paces yet to see if it's good to go, besides it needs a dehorning before I'll carry it again.
--- Quote from: jthhapkido on May 23, 2013, 01:36:51 PM ---I'm 5'8" (yeah, I'm short) and 165. And I carry a G17 with no issues throughout the year. Obviously, it is easier in winter, but in summer with the right holster, I have no problems concealing in a short-sleeved shirt and shorts. FOR ME, the difference in comfort level, ease of access from any position with either hand, and the weapon itself seem to be a much better choice than a 5-shot j-frame from a pocket.
--- End quote ---
I'm 5'10", 160, so I'm not a big guy either. I can conceal a full size at 4-5 o'clock IWB in a t-shirt/shorts, too, but that's if I'm standing up. If I sit, bend over, the grip prints badly. A pistol with a short grip doesn't print as badly for me, my j-frame disappears IWB at 4-5 o'clock.
--- Quote from: jthhapkido on May 23, 2013, 01:36:51 PM ---Now, that's me. For you, it may not work out that way. But...
....what percentage of the time when other people are around is your hand actually on the gun?
....and if your hand is not on the gun, what is your actual draw time?
....and what is it from sitting, standing, or knocked on the floor?
(I note that I think everyone should know the answers to the last two questions for their particular carry mode.)
--- End quote ---
I don't know the percentage of time that I have my hand in my pocket resting on the gun--but as I mentioned earlier, I don't feel uncomfortable with my hands in my pockets. Noone's going to ask you what you've got in your pocket (at least noone's asked me so far...). Also mentioned earlier, I don't know my draw times, but access to your weapon in a variety of situations is definitely worth thinking of and planning for.
--- Quote from: jthhapkido on May 23, 2013, 01:36:51 PM ---One of the reasons I carry AIWB. For me, standard 4-5 o'clock IWB prints like you wouldn't believe. Either I've never found a holster that works for me, or I have a weird body shape (you never know!) but IWB just doesn't fly for me. With AIWB, once I found a holster type that worked, I can carry, bend over forward, bend to the sides, stretch up into the air---and it doesn't print nor does it dig into me.
That being said, you might try AIWB sometime...
--- End quote ---
I've tried appendix and it's workable but not entirely comfortable if I have to bend forward. It prints quite a bit worse for me than 4-5 o'clock IWB, too. I'm a skinny guy and a bulge on one side of my front at the belt line is too noticeable, at least I think it is.
Ultimately, I think any chosen carry method comes down to personal preference stemming from a balance of preparedness and convenience/comfort. I don't pocket carry 100% of the time, it gets split between IWB, pocket, shoulder or deep concealment (smartcarry) depending on what I'm doing. If I'm going to be sitting in a car for most of the day, I wear a shoulder holster since it or a cross draw keep the weapon accessible. The smartcarry gets used for church (not in NE, unfortunately) or other activities where I'm wearing dress clothes and do not want to be found out. Having a gun is better than no gun. When I can get a real job and afford more ammunition and other pistols / holsters, I'll probably pocket carry less, but for now, it serves its purpose.
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