General Categories > Carry Issues
Open Carry...*gasp*
Dan W:
--- Quote from: GreyGeek on June 05, 2013, 11:33:28 AM ---Do you happen to know where I could find this data? I'd be interested in checking it out!
--- End quote ---
Read.... More Guns, Less Crime by John Lott
JTH:
Here's a couple of recent links for folks to look at, regarding this topic:
http://www.gunnuts.net/2013/05/02/open-carry-myths-misconceptions/
http://www.gunnuts.net/2013/05/09/open-carry-myths-misconceptions-2/
http://www.gunnuts.net/2013/05/16/open-carry-doing-it-right/
In particular, in response to MissMichella's question:
--- Quote ---If you'll excuse my ignorance, what is empty-hand training?
--- End quote ---
As the articles discuss---it is indeed true that perhaps some criminals might be deterred by your open carry. But along with that, the one thing that is completely true is that criminals who aren't deterred by it have a plan to deal with both you and your weapon. As such, if someone is open-carrying (particularly if that someone is using a passive-retention holster, or a cheap holster that breaks easily), that person should know the basics of empty-hand self-defense (weaponless self-defense training), and have practiced weapons retention techniques.
If you don't, or haven't---then you are a walking "free gun" to a criminal who has decided to go ahead and attack anyway.
I don't know anyone who can maintain situational awareness all the time. I know people who try, including quite a number who have had specific training on doing so. And yet---they will all admit that they simply can't do it all the time.
One of the reasons that the trained people I know tend to overwhelmingly choose concealed carry is that they aren't worried about deterring the small-time criminals, because there are plenty of other techniques and skills that can handle those. More serious criminals, however, won't be deterred by simply seeing someone with a firearm, and being a target and a free gun isn't what those people want to be---and they know that no one has perfect situational awareness.
Again, this isn't telling you that you shouldn't open carry--I support your right to carry any way you like.
However, that being said, my personal opinion (so give that whatever weight it deserves) is that open carry won't stop anyone that I'd actually be seriously worried about, and it will mean that in a situation in which I'm open carrying my attacker will already have a plan to neutralize either myself or my weapon--which increases the danger level to me quite seriously.
And that's coming from the perspective of someone who has practiced martial arts for over 20 years, and who has considerable practice at empty-hand self-defense and weapons retention techniques.
Mudinyeri:
--- Quote from: jthhapkido on June 11, 2013, 03:25:52 PM ---But along with that, the one thing that is completely true is that criminals who aren't deterred by it have a plan to deal with both you and your weapon.
--- End quote ---
My direct experience with criminals suggests that very few of them have anything resembling a plan. Certainly, some, on the spur of the moment, may grab for a visible firearm. However, I highly doubt that what I would describe as a "run of the mill" criminal gives much, if any, consideration to the questions, "What if I run into an armed citizen? What if that person is openly carrying their firearm?"
Edit: FWIW, I would liken open carry with a retention holster to carrying a "biker wallet" with a chain. Is it truly more enticing to a thief to try to grab a "biker wallet" or a regular wallet?
CitizenClark:
--- Quote from: Dan W on June 04, 2013, 07:18:07 PM ---I think the real advantage of CCW over Open Carry is that even if only 1-2% of the population ever actually carry concealed, the criminal element does not know who is armed and therefore forced to change tactics or locations to find easier targets.
So, the effective crime deterrent for CCW is much higher than the real number of permit holders, while Open Carry is limited the actual number of visibly armed persons and locations
--- End quote ---
And then there are instances like this: http://www.examiner.com/article/open-carry-deters-armed-robbery-kennesaw
JTH:
I said:
--- Quote from: jthhapkido ---But along with that, the one thing that is completely true is that criminals who aren't deterred by it have a plan to deal with both you and your weapon.
--- End quote ---
To which Mudinyeri replied:
--- Quote from: Mudinyeri on June 12, 2013, 10:32:50 AM ---My direct experience with criminals suggests that very few of them have anything resembling a plan. Certainly, some, on the spur of the moment, may grab for a visible firearm. However, I highly doubt that what I would describe as a "run of the mill" criminal gives much, if any, consideration to the questions, "What if I run into an armed citizen? What if that person is openly carrying their firearm?"
--- End quote ---
I think---that you are talking about a different topic.
The criminals I have dealt with in the past (approximately 1600 or so, though it should be noted that most were convicted criminals) almost all fit the following profile: cunning, average range of intelligence, extremely poor impulse control, and an attitude that they were the only important thing in the world--as such, other people, and other people's belongings (everything, really) did not matter compared to their own wants and needs. (I note that the ones who only had personal-use drug charges were a little different.)
Given that---some did indeed plan their crimes. Some were spur-of-the-moment. And some were incredibly monumentally stupid.
But that isn't what I was talking about. I'm not talking about your average criminal, who decides to commit a crime and doesn't notice that you are open carrying a firearm in the place where he is going to do it. For that case, there is no deterrent effect since he didn't see it, and it gives you no real advantage compared to concealed carry since he wasn't paying enough attention to know you had a gun, so he really isn't going to notice a careful draw, either.
I was talking about when a criminal decides to commit a crime, scopes out the area, and notices that you have a gun. Some may be deterred by this. However, the ones who aren't will not simply go ahead with their crime and ignore that you have a gun. They will change what they are doing to deal with you and your gun. Whether that means:
1) They will blindside you when you are taking a soda out of the cooler at the mini-mart as the start of their crime, or
2) They will notice you have a common SERPA holster on your right hip, so they will simply step behind you in line at the grocery store and take it out of your holster with their right hand as the start of their crime, or
3) They will just shoot you first if it is that level of crime...
I don't know which they'll pick. But it is certainly true that if they notice you have a gun and decide to go ahead with their crime---they AREN'T going to ignore you. They'll start their crime with you.
If their crime was a simple mugging, and you were the only victim, then whether or not you have a gun will make a difference to their choice, I'm sure---but it'll also depend on how you carry yourself and how much attention you are paying to what is going on around you. As was posted in the links, some open carry folks were specifically targeted because it was an easy way to get a gun, based on the awareness and general demeanor of the OC person.
If your attacker knows you have a gun, and they still decide to mug you, then that is going to change how serious a situation you have, isn't it?
We aren't talking about criminals who make plans with multiple avenues, redundancies, and alternate tactics in case of issues prior to their crime. We are talking about when you are in a Walgreens and the person casing the place goes back outside and says to his two friends "There's a guy in there with a gun, so Joe, you get behind him in line and when we are ready drop him and get his gun and we'll take the rest of the place."
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