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Author Topic: I am finally handloading .223  (Read 18056 times)

Offline iiranger

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Boat tails
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2009, 12:16:41 PM »
Dan, boat tails are a "can of worms."

#1). If you want this in great detail you will need to find a university grade physicist. Basically, as I get it, as the bullet passes thru the fluid, air, it makes a hole. Then the fluid/air collapses behind it. As long as the bullet is above the speed of sound, approx. 1100 fps, there is a vacuum behind the bullet and the bullet is not effected by the collapse. In theory, the vacuum is dragging the base of the bullet "back..." !!
     When the velocity falls below 1100 fps, then the collapsing air "drags" on the base of the bullet and any imperfections such as jacket displaced by rifling and may effect accuracy...
     So the first question, when does your bullet reach the velocity of 1100 fps and below. Is it within the range you will be using the "system" (gun and ammo) and be effected. Hornady ammo with 75 grain bullets at 500 yards is still going 1750 fps per company claims... You shoot that far?

#2). Mr. Corbin, Dave (swage.com or corbins.com or ???) has his book "Rediscover Swaging #" on his web site for reading, download, etc. He expresses the opinion that with calibers as small as .22 and .24 the boat tail has no appreciable effect. Wasted effort/money for civilian uses.

#3). The reduced size base does make it easier to get the bullet started in the mouth of a resized case. There was a time that boat tails were more costly. Worth it? Your call.

#4). There is an on going discussion of the effects of the "funnel shape" (reverse funnel???) of the bullet base and the insides of the barrel. If the jacket does not obdurate perfectly and seal the bore, then the funnel helps the hot gases find this avenue of leakage and escape accelerating barrel wear. Not of the greatest concern to the civilian shooter but a "big deal" to military use where full auto's spit out hundreds per minute...

     Thus the concept of "rebated boat tail." The reduced size of the base causes the fluid flow over the bullet to be directed in the streamline shape. At the same time the "squared off base allows for more uniform distribution of gas pressure to push on the base of the bullet. (And, allegedly, reduced barrel wear... again, not of greatest  concern to civilians.)

#5). THEN comes GENEVA. The nicer part of this argument is that the soldier on the battle field is not necessarily a "bad person." Therefore it is not "fair" to shoot this person with an expanding bullet much more sure to cause immediate death. It is more "fair" to use a FMJ that only wounds. The less nice reality is that a soldier shot with a soft point/hollow point and dies quickly, well, no further concern need be expended until graves registration picks up the remains. At the same time, a soldier that is "wounded" and needs attention will absorb the time of 4 or 6 or more attendants.

War is basically attrition. One side wears down the other side until they can fight no more. Making them take care of lots of wounded helps use up their resources...

Point: the boat tails used by the military are FMJ but designed to wobble/tumble upon striking flesh and cause a greater wound and still comply with Geneva rules... The stories are legion. The British .303 loaded with a bullet that has an aluminum plug in the tip (or wood)... you can find samples. Many 55 grain bullets, flat based have been fired successfully thru a 1 in 14 twist. Military wanted this "tumble" and 1 in 14 wasn't quite enough so they went 1 in 12 at first for the longer boat tailed bullets...

Of course we have better barrel steel today and no one likes to remember that the faster twists wear more quickly.

So, if you are going to put on a uniform and go play war, you will be issued a marginal boat tailed bullet that should enhance wounding and remain within the Geneva rules. Otherwise, you do as all civies do, you take what you can find, powder, case, primer, powder, and see how well you system (gun) likes it and how well you can use it... LUCK.

Offline Dan W

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Re: I am finally handloading .223
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2009, 10:02:28 PM »
Well, I guess I will find out about loading some flat based Hornady V-MAX 55's this weekend
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Offline Dan W

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Re: I am finally handloading .223
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2009, 10:45:00 PM »
Today, after putting out the "oh crap, my king size water bed has a big leak" fire today. I was able to get back to some .223 handloads.

First up...prep the surplus brass I shot up last week. 40 pieces takes a while to remove the crimped primer, relieve the crimp, resize and trim.

Then I made a decision, based on multiple inputs, to try 24 grains of H335 under the 55gr Hornady bullets. I also decided to set the COL by seating both bullet types to the cannelure with a light crimp. The Hornady 55gr VMAX were a consistent 2.245". And without changes to the seater die, the 55gr Spire Points were centered on the cannelure with a COL of 2.220"

Tomorrows weather may be a little too hot for me to test fire any, but Sunday ... maybe I can get that 1 MOA group.

For me that would be a feat.  NO GO - rained out
« Last Edit: August 09, 2009, 10:42:16 PM by Dan W »
Dan W    NFOA Co Founder
Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.   J. F. K.

Offline Dan W

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Re: I am finally handloading .223
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2009, 07:00:07 PM »
I had a chance to test fire my Hornady handloads today, BTW a very nice day for shooting.

Both the 55gr VMAX and the 55gr Hornady Spire points were very accurate loaded at 24gr H335. I am very happy with these loads, but may adjust upward slightly, to see if I can improve accuracy. The Spire points are about $13 per hundred, and will likely be my preferred load.

I need to try  both types of Hornady bullets with Ramshot TAC powder also.

Another shooter at Lincoln Ike's suggested I try the 50gr VMAX, as he has had great results in his Bushmaster with a 1x9 twist barrel.

Then, he let me fire his Armalite AR10... AWESOME !  and I was surprised that the .308 recoil was very much less than I anticipated. Plus, it had a very nice Armalite match 2 stage trigger and a Nikon scope, that even I could shoot well. Thanks Scott, and it was nice to meet you.

I was also able to test my plinker load (Armscor 62gr @23.5gr H335) in my other two RRA midlength carbines and they run great. So I plan to load the remaining 800 bullets ASAP
Dan W    NFOA Co Founder
Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.   J. F. K.

Offline Rich B

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Re: I am finally handloading .223
« Reply #24 on: August 17, 2009, 10:09:19 AM »
Thanks for the follow-up, Dan.
NRA Life Member.

Offline JimP

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Re: I am finally handloading .223
« Reply #25 on: August 17, 2009, 11:52:35 PM »
"#2). Mr. Corbin, Dave (swage.com or corbins.com or ) has his book "Rediscover Swaging #" on his web site for reading, download, etc. He expresses the opinion that with calibers as small as .22 and .24 the boat tail has no appreciable effect. Wasted effort/money for civilian uses."

Entirely plausible- just look at ballistic coefficients for light (say 55 grain .223) bullets..... BTSP and SP of the same weight: little difference.  Then look at the  BC's for 150 grain .277's,  both BTSP and Spire point: big dofference past 400 yards in velocity/trajecory/energy.  Fairly simply to verify- Shoot them.
The Right to Keep and BEAR Arms is enshrined explicitly in both our State and Federal Constitutions, yet most of us are afraid to actually excercise that Right, for very good reason: there is a good chance of being arrested........ and  THAT is a damned shame.  III.

Offline Dan W

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Re: I am finally handloading .223
« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2009, 09:05:45 PM »
New chronograph arrived today. Very basic model from Competition Electronics

http://www.competitionelectronics.com/pages/Prochrono_Pal.html
Dan W    NFOA Co Founder
Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.   J. F. K.

Offline Dan W

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Re: I am finally handloading .223
« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2009, 10:49:30 PM »
 After working the Cabela's membership drive today, I picked up some 50gr VMAX and 55 fmjbt Hornady bullets for more experimentation...
Dan W    NFOA Co Founder
Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.   J. F. K.

Offline Dan W

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Re: I am finally handloading .223
« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2009, 08:49:30 PM »
Today I had a couple hours on the range checking out the new chronograph. I was pretty happy with the 50gr VMAX load, as it it nearly identical in accuracy to the 55gr VMAX w/cannelure with a slight edge to the 55gr bullet.

Load data

50gr VMAX, 2.260" COL, 24.5gr H335, average velocity 2919fps Magtech SR primer TW73 brass

50gr VMAX, 2.222" COL, 24.5gr H335, average velocity 2900fps Magtech SR primer TW73 brass

55gr VMAX, 2.245" COL, 24.2gr H335, average velocity 2850fps Magtech SR primer TW73 brass.

It's pretty obvious from the data that I am on the low side all around for velocity. Next time out I will add .5gr powder to the 50gr load and bump the 55gr up to 24.5gr. I may also try COL of 2.260"(max for magazine use). As I understand it, that will increase both pressure and velocity, and I think I have some room to work in both areas.

Accuracy for all these loads is a consistent 1 MOA, results mostly due to operator inconsistency.

But I can feel my technique starting to smooth out each time I shoot.  Maybe I'm not all that far from hitting pdogs at 200 yards


« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 08:53:08 PM by Dan W »
Dan W    NFOA Co Founder
Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.   J. F. K.

Offline JimP

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Re: I am finally handloading .223
« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2009, 10:22:40 PM »
I have had good results with the 110gr .277 VMAX...... good bullets, though they print consistently 2 inches left of my hunting load's(150gr SIE GK) zero........
The Right to Keep and BEAR Arms is enshrined explicitly in both our State and Federal Constitutions, yet most of us are afraid to actually excercise that Right, for very good reason: there is a good chance of being arrested........ and  THAT is a damned shame.  III.

Offline Dan W

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Re: I am finally handloading .223
« Reply #30 on: September 05, 2009, 11:18:49 PM »
Damn...Looks like I accidently deleted my last post... anyways, today I found a Redding powder measure in the pawn shop and stole it for $32.50. It is the Model 3 Redding, sans the bench bracket.   I am using it in an old Lee C frame press with the lever and ram removed.

I was able to throw 50 perfect 24.5gr throws this afternoon using H335.

The Redding equipment I am using now are the 2 die set  in .223 (full length resize) with the carbide free floating neck sizer,  The Redding powder trickler, and now a Redding powder measure.  So far no regrets for spending a little more for quality
« Last Edit: September 05, 2009, 11:20:20 PM by Dan W »
Dan W    NFOA Co Founder
Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.   J. F. K.

Offline Dan W

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Re: I am finally handloading .223
« Reply #31 on: September 13, 2009, 09:04:47 PM »
Gettin there...1.3 MOA (incuding the flyer) Hornady 55gr Spire Point 2.200"  24.5gr H335 2910 FPS average
 
« Last Edit: April 16, 2010, 06:53:11 PM by Dan W »
Dan W    NFOA Co Founder
Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.   J. F. K.

Offline Dan W

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Re: I am finally handloading .223
« Reply #32 on: January 09, 2010, 08:48:35 PM »
I decided to try out some Ramshot TAC powder with heavier bullets. Today I got my hands on some Hornady 68gr Match HPBT, Hornady 75gr HPBT & Sierra 69gr MatchKing HPBT.

Load work up for the  68 and 69 grain bullets will start at 23.8gr of TAC and COL is 2.260".

The 75 grainers will start at 22.5gr TAC . I found it interesting that the 68 and 75gr Hornady hollow point boat tails are the same length.

Now I just need to wait for the miracle January thaw to occur...anyone know if Ramshot TAC is temperature sensitive ;D
Dan W    NFOA Co Founder
Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.   J. F. K.

Offline Dan W

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Re: I am finally handloading .223
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2010, 07:40:10 PM »
Some recent developments... upgraded equipment. 

Bargain bin Redding Model 3 powder measure found at a pawn shop -  found the needed mount and a baffle. I saved $100 and it is super precise with the ball powders I am using,  TAC and H335

Upgrade to Possum Hollow case trimmer. The Lee setups work, but it is a lot of work...hopin' this cuts some case prep time with equal precision.

Added a Hornady cam type bullet puller and collet  for easy bullet removal without damage.

Upgrade?  Made up a stuck case remover set...you can guess why. I also decided to try a different (better?) case lube in Imperial Sizing Wax.  I have read many good things about this stuff, waiting to try it out.


Added a Daniel Defense Omega Rail to the Rifle. I guess I will see if free floated barrels are a real accuracy improvement.

I also lightened the 2nd stage of my RRA match trigger about a pound, previously it was 3 lbs 1st stage and 3 lbs 2nd stage. Now it is 3  and  1.5 lbs approximately.

Here's to the mythical sub MOA group
Dan W    NFOA Co Founder
Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.   J. F. K.

Offline dvsboyz

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Re: I am finally handloading .223
« Reply #34 on: February 14, 2010, 09:14:08 AM »
try some winchester 748 i've been loading my ar15 rounds with it and using a 70 vld bullet by berger and for a gas gun its grouping exellent i
have a 1:9 twist and was thinking about a 60gr v max does anyone know if that will staiblize alright with the barrel twist it takes a couple shots with the vlds to take a coyote down at around 200 yards

Offline Dan W

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Re: I am finally handloading .223
« Reply #35 on: March 07, 2010, 07:31:14 PM »
Finally some range time today! The 100 yard range at the IKE's was not as busy as I expected, but the walk to the target was a pretty mushy and wet.

Right off the bat, I shot a .912 MOA group with the Hornady 68gr Match over 23.8gr of Ramshot TAC. I think the stringing is caused by using a bipod instead of bags. I will need to check that on my next trip



The 69gr Sierra and 75gr Hornady also stabilized well in my 1x9 twist RRA barrel.

My old standby Hornady 55 SPP still holds a decent group even in a semi rapid fire test.




I think I need to make up some shooting bags for my next trip if I want to get the full potential out of the heavier bullets.

BTW the IKE's had a large group of kids and parents today for the Hunter Safety course. Great to see the future of hunting and shooting in Nebraska is still alive
« Last Edit: March 07, 2010, 07:47:24 PM by Dan W »
Dan W    NFOA Co Founder
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Offline justsomeguy

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Re: I am finally handloading .223
« Reply #36 on: March 07, 2010, 08:04:42 PM »
Dan, are you preloading the bipod? Leaning forward on the rifle a bit to put some pressure on the springs. This should help steady it up some. What model bipod are you using?
« Last Edit: March 07, 2010, 08:31:07 PM by justsomeguy »
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Offline Dan W

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Re: I am finally handloading .223
« Reply #37 on: March 07, 2010, 08:16:36 PM »
My bipod is a Harris BRM-S 6-9" on a Larue Tactical QR mount.

 My friend Gunscribe asked me that same question, and frankly I forgot about it today.

With all the changes I had made this winter,  I had to sight in a new scope, adjust to a lighter 2nd stage on the trigger, and I was chronographing  and recording data at the same time.

I think my best groups will come when I focus on one thing,  and pull all the technique together without thinking about it. Just like anything else , it's a process I have to learn.

It took me 10 years to break 100 straight in trap the first time.

I will get this right too...eventually
Dan W    NFOA Co Founder
Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.   J. F. K.

Offline Dan W

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Re: I am finally handloading .223
« Reply #38 on: April 16, 2010, 06:55:29 PM »
Tomorrow my work gets put to the test. Hope to be shooting prairie rats by Scott B's place after the Kearney gun show
Dan W    NFOA Co Founder
Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.   J. F. K.

Offline Dan W

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Re: I am finally handloading .223
« Reply #39 on: April 18, 2010, 10:40:26 AM »
Well only a few dogs would show their heads after I killed the first two, so we ended up playing with some other toys Rob Androyna was very nice to lend out ;D
Dan W    NFOA Co Founder
Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.   J. F. K.