Looking to start in USPSA, have some questions

[bkoenig]

I want to start shooting some USPSA matches.  I've done it once before but I would like to try and hit some matches a little more regularly and actually get classified.  I'm planning on using a CZ-75B and I have a few equipment questions, hopefully one of the regulars can help me.  I plan to shoot Production class.

1.  I understand that external hammer guns like the CZ start with the hammer down.  Does the hammer need to be all the way down, resting on the firing pin, or can it just go to the half cock notch?  It seems to me that half cock would be safer.

2.  I believe any external modifications that change the profile of the gun are not allowed in Production.  Am I correct in interpreting that as meaning grip tape on the front strap of the grip is ok?  Also, I believe aftermarket grips are ok as long as the profile isn't changed, so Hogue wraparound grips with the finger grooves would be illegal but a set of checkered wood grips that have a different shape than factory are fine as long as they don't extend out past the frame.  Is that correct?

3.  Related to #2, are larger aftermarket sights allowed?  The factory CZ sights are pretty small so I've considered replacing them.  I think I've seen where guys run aftermarket sights in Production, but it seems to me that it would change the gun's profile.

4.  I think I read somewhere that there's a restriction on mag holders, meaning they need to hold spare mags vertically.  The one I have now holds the mags at about a 15 degree angle from vertical.

I'm sure I'll have more as I think of them.....

[OnTheFly]

1.  I understand that external hammer guns like the CZ start with the hammer down.  Does the hammer need to be all the way down, resting on the firing pin, or can it just go to the half cock notch?  It seems to me that half cock would be safer.

This might answer your question...
http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-ruling-details.php?indx=30

2.  I believe any external modifications that change the profile of the gun are not allowed in Production.  Am I correct in interpreting that as meaning grip tape on the front strap of the grip is ok?  Also, I believe aftermarket grips are ok as long as the profile isn't changed, so Hogue wraparound grips with the finger grooves would be illegal but a set of checkered wood grips that have a different shape than factory are fine as long as they don't extend out past the frame.  Is that correct?

I believe your statements are correct, but I don't have any specific reference other than the USPSA rule book.  It shows diagrams of how the external can be "modified" with grip tape.  Though I'm not sure if the finger grooves would be illegal.  This is from the USPSA rule book...

• For semi-automatic Production guns, grip tape, grip sleeves, checkering, stippling or other texture may only be applied in the areas shown in appendix E4. Glue and grit is considered the same as stippling.
• Replacement grip panels are allowed provided they do not extend below the butt of the gun to form a make-shift magwell.

3.  Related to #2, are larger aftermarket sights allowed?  The factory CZ sights are pretty small so I've considered replacing them.  I think I've seen where guys run aftermarket sights in Production, but it seems to me that it would change the gun's profile.

I don't think there is any restriction in the sights, as long as they are "notch and post" style. 

4.  I think I read somewhere that there's a restriction on mag holders, meaning they need to hold spare mags vertically.  The one I have now holds the mags at about a 15 degree angle from vertical.

There is not a restriction on the angle of the mag holders.  However, there IS a restriction stating that they can not be forward of the hipbone (this also applies to holster) and that there is a maximum distance from the inner belt.  With that said, most Production division shooters will have the mag holders mostly vertical because you will need more of them than those in other divisions who carry fully loaded magazines.  Thus, having angled magazine pouches would likely require your 5-7 magazines to be spread all the way around the back of your belt, and possibly out of reach.

With that said, my last couple of magazine pouches on the back of my belt are angled slightly towards my weak side hip so that they are easier to access.

That's my limited two cents.  Hope it helps. 

Fly

[bkoenig]

This might answer your question...
http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-ruling-details.php?indx=30

Thanks for the input - I think that link is not quite what I'm looking for, though, since my gun is not a decocker model but one with a safety instead of a decocker.  It has to be manually lowered.

I had a decocker until last week when I sold it and bought the safety model 

[jonm]

Pretty sure you can just engage the safety with the hammer cocked fully.

[bkoenig]

I could be wrong, but I think Production starts hammer down while Limited starts with hammer cocked & safety on. 

From searching teh interwebz it seems like there's a lot of debate about this.

[OnTheFly]

I could be wrong, but I think Production starts hammer down while Limited starts with hammer cocked & safety on. 

From searching teh interwebz it seems like there's a lot of debate about this.

I think this is more gun specific instead of division specific.  A traditional 1911 for example has to obviously be in a different state than my XDm.

8.1.2

Self-loading Pistols:
8.1.2.1 “Single action” – chamber loaded, hammer cocked, and the safety engaged.

8.1.2.2 “Double action” – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-cocked.

8.1.2.3 “Selective action” – chamber loaded with hammer fully down, or chamber loaded and hammer cocked with external safety engaged (see Divisions in Appendix D).

8.1.2.4 With respect to Rules 8.1.2.1 and 8.1.2.3, the term “safety” means the primary visible safety lever on the handgun (e.g. the thumb safety on a “1911” genre handgun). In the event of doubt, the Range Master is the final authority on this matter.

I think 8.1.2.2 would apply to your CZ and "...hammer fully down..." says to me that it can not be half-cocked.

Fly

[Chris Z]

Production Division only allows double action guns. So yes your CZ hammer has to be manually lowered before holstering. Cocked and locked can only be in Limited, Limited 10 or Open (and Single Stack)

[camus]

I had a decocker until last week when I sold it and bought the safety model 

Have fun riding that hammer. 


Really, IMHO, it is a production gun and should be allowed as intended to be used.

[bkoenig]

CZ's are actually pretty easy to decock manually, as long as you pay attention and be careful.  Not something I would want to do under duress, but I feel comfortable enough with it.

[David Hineline]

I suggest you shoot limited class and shoot the gun the way you want to?


If not interested in racing, and racing guns, there is a group shooting IDPA at Big Shots in Lincoln.  You can get on their email list and get copied on their shooting schedule.

[JTH]

I suggest you shoot limited class and shoot the gun the way you want to?

Limited division is fun.  Of course, Limited minor with low capacity magazines (compared to the rest of the people in the division) isn't nearly as fun.

Or instead, as was said, simply shoot the gun in the division it fits, and manually drop the hammer at make ready.  Works perfectly well, as the many others who shoot CZs in Production will tell you. 

If not interested in racing, and racing guns, there is a group shooting IDPA at Big Shots in Lincoln.  You can get on their email list and get copied on their shooting schedule.

Just a note:  There's an entire division of USPSA for people who don't have racing guns, nor are they needed---and while IDPA is a perfectly decent sport on its own, using IDPA to subtly denigrate USPSA is not useful.

By all means, everyone should try IDPA.  And USPSA.  After all, it isn't an either/or proposition.  And people with non-racing guns work perfectly well in USPSA.  (Matter of fact, Production division tends to have the largest number of shooters at the ENSP monthly matches.)

Thinking about it further, my G34 works in IDPA's SSP division---and would be considered "stock" and thus I wouldn't have to shoot it in ESP.  And that's the gun I use for USPSA Production division, so I'm thinking "race gun"---not so much.

Brian asked about USPSA, so people answered about USPSA.  People interested in competition should indeed check out both USPSA and IDPA. 

[bkoenig]

I was looking at Production because as I understand it if I were to compete in Limited I would be at a disadvantage due to being in Minor power factor (it's a 9mm).  I'm not really concerned about decocking, if you pay attention it's easy to do safely.  I was just surprised that it requires the hammer to be fully lowered. That seems kind of backwards when a half cock notch is available.  Not a big deal, I just wanted to make sure I understood correctly.

The reason I was planning on trying USPSA is because most of the people I know who shoot competitively shoot that.   . I do plan to try IDPA, also.

[JTH]

I'm not really concerned about decocking, if you pay attention it's easy to do safely.  I was just surprised that it requires the hammer to be fully lowered. That seems kind of backwards when a half cock notch is available.  Not a big deal, I just wanted to make sure I understood correctly.

If I recall correctly, this was added to the rules (hammer fully down) due to the fact that on certain guns, "half-cocked" actually takes out some of the trigger pull weight and the trigger pre-travel---and it is certainly true that firearms manufacturers (who build some gun versions specifically for competition) would certainly create DA/SA guns with a "half-cocked" position that was far closer to their SA weight than their DA weight.

Gamers, all of 'em. 



75B will work just great in Production---and you might talk to John Victor about CZs at the range sometime, because I believe he has the most experience with using CZs in USPSA out of the local folks who shoot. 

[David Hineline]

9mm is a disadvantage only if you miss the A zone.  I was not denigrating USPSA, I just did not see a reason he would want to shoot in production class over limited.  He has explained.

[Ross Berck]

I think this is more gun specific instead of division specific.  A traditional 1911 for example has to obviously be in a different state than my XDm.

I think 8.1.2.2 would apply to your CZ and "...hammer fully down..." says to me that it can not be half-cocked.

Fly

The CZ75B would fall into the 8.1.2.3"selective" category.  It can be carried hammer down or cocked and locked(hammer back safety on).  The B series cz75s have a firing pin block so the firing pin cannot move unless the trigger is pulled.  I dont know about the class issue...I say shoot a class that allows you to function like you were carrying the gun as ccw.  The rest is a waste of time IMHO

[JTH]

The CZ75B would fall into the 8.1.2.3"selective" category.  It can be carried hammer down or cocked and locked(hammer back safety on).  The B series cz75s have a firing pin block so the firing pin cannot move unless the trigger is pulled.  I dont know about the class issue...I say shoot a class that allows you to function like you were carrying the gun as ccw.  The rest is a waste of time IMHO

Correct---since it could be either way, the choice being made has to do with what division it is in. (Not class.     In USPSA, "class" means something else.) In Production division, the start would require hammer down.  If shot in Limited, starting cocked and locked would be perfectly legal.

[bkoenig]

I think pistol whipping the target should be an option.  The CZ is certainly heavy enough to be used as an impact weapon

[OnTheFly]

There are two reasons why I like to shoot Production division...

1) I'm not competing against others who have spent considerably more modifying their gun than I am able to.  Specifically, external modifications which would provide an advantage over others shooting a more stock pistol.

2) Right now I see myself as more of a fundamentalist action shooter.  While I don't fault anyone for shooting in the division they so desire (and some day I may branch out to other divisions), I think of the Production division as requiring the most skill due to the lack of advanced equipment.  No red dot sights or gigantic funnels attached to the mag well.  You are forced to have the fundamentals down pat to excel.  It is more (I know it is not the same thing) of what it would take to survive an attack where you had to use your carry gun.

To each his/her own though. 

Fly

[dcjulie]

Production division is an excellent division to shoot in and start in.  It is all scored "minor" so the 9mm is not a disadvantage at all. 

Some of us have moved out of production for various reasons, and it is all good fun.  Nobody will fault you for any division you decide to shoot.  The only time you'll get flack is if you aren't safe - then you get LOTS of flack - and DQ'd.

Come join the fun!

[JTH]

Some of us have moved out of production for various reasons, and it is all good fun.  Nobody will fault you for any division you decide to shoot.  The only time you'll get flack is if you aren't safe - then you get LOTS of flack - and DQ'd.

Well, you will also get flack if you move to Open division, because Open shooters deserve it.