Another "What if....?"

[SemperFiGuy]

Well, this corner of the NFOA Forum has gotten Lively, well and good.

Here We Go.......

Dan W:

I'm flattered that you even bothered to read my little screed, much less respond to it.

Concealed Carry
Now,  We both got our info on concealed carry from the same place:  Concealed Handgun Permit Act.  And LB454.   And Nebraska Administrative Code, Title 272, Chapter 21, Section 002.03.  So let's stipulate agreement on that item.   Concealed means concealed.   Totally concealed.   Actually, "Totally hidden from view with no portion of the handgun visible",  [NAC].

Open Carry
Your assertion that Open Carry is not defined in Nebraska shall remain unchallenged here.   However, you are welcome to convince the Judge that--just because any part of a handgun is showing, no matter how minuscule or indistinguishable or unrecognizable it might be--Nebraska's permissive, non-prohibited Open Carry mode is thereby fully effected.   ["Here, Judge.......Look through this little hole in my holster........"]

Illegal Carry
Somewhere in between fully legal, Title 272 CHP Concealed Carry and clearly established, legal Open Carry.

After all, absent any existing legal definition, the law is what the judge says it is.   In fact, the law is just about always what the judge says it is, regardless of how it's written.   Even with definitions.

Now, Here's one for your consideration, if you have the time and inclination:

Most of us have seen those classic old leather flap holsters with "US" or "USMC" embossed upon them.   With a great big flap and a little .38 Special M&P, you couldn't tell if what's inside is (a) a firearm or (b) lunch.   The Chaplain probably carried a little flask of medicinal whiskey obtained from the Medical Officer in his holster.

Now---would that getup worn OWB/Strongside be Concealed or Open Carry?


RonVanDyn
Right On.   I bought two of those very same Little Beauties during the recent Cabela's sale, same as you.   For me, they are a temporary solution, because they are quite flimsy [22-24 gauge steel, or so] and look like they'll be easily compromised by a Perp's screwdriver.   However, The Club [as in Steering Wheel Club] makes one of much heavier steel for $49.95.   So I'll get those and replace the flimsier ones.   Already used the flimsies several times, however.


Finally, Husker_Fan:

You nailed it.   Zero tolerance for mixing alcohol [and some other controlled substances] with Nebraska CHP/CCW.   Nay, not even just one little drinkie, Ossifer.   None.  Nor even before carrying concealed, should such stuff be detectable in urine, blood, or breath.  [Unless therapeutically obtained and prescribed.   Good luck here in the case of alcohol.]

And Anybody Else on the Forum:   Wanna go Nuts in a Hurry???    Try reading Title 18 USC, Chapter 44, Firearms.   Can't be Done.   Even by Lawyers, I'll Bet...........



Let's Keep 'Em Covered Up.

And in the Trunk Across Illinois.


sfg

 

[2 E L O]

I have a better option for you.  I have several of these and they work great!  The smaller one works well to store my XD-40 sub and the larger for my Ruger P90DC.  I can even fit the spare mag in the box without problems.

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/pod/standard-pod-wrapped.jsp?id=0045006&navCount=1&parentId=cat20772&masterpathid=&navAction=push&cmCat=MainCatcat602007-cat20772_TGP&parentType=index&indexId=cat20772&rid=

Awesome!  On sale!  Done and done!  Just bought one of the larges online and will pick it up in store....

[Dan W]

SFG, you are ignoring the fact that the statute I posted does legally define how to determine if a handgun is concealed. A judge would be limited by that definition unless he choose to defy the law.  If any part of the handgun is capable of being seen, by law , it is not concealed, and therefore is openly carried.

Omaha was unable to make a case against James McCollough for this very reason

[SemperFiGuy]

Hi, Dan.........


The OWH newspaper account said--therefore, it must be true--that the Omaha authorities could not make a clear determination from the Walgreen's security photos that James McCullough's handgun was totally concealed.   So it just mighta,  coulda been Open Carry.   But they weren't sure.   Maybe it was concealed.   But they had no clear proof.  It was inconclusive.   They said.  So they kinda put it in the rear view mirror.   Good move, them.

Plus, they probably didn't want to push the case against him anyhow.

Now, I'll say it again:  You and I are in agreement on the definition of Concealed Carry.   After all, it's there in the statutes, clearly defined in black and white:   Keep it covered.   Totally covered.   We can probably let that dog die.

We do, however, appear to be in disagreement about the definition of Open Carry.

Your contention appears to be that there are (a) no laws positively permitting nor (b) definitions of Open Carry in Nebraska.   Which position I accept.

My contention is simply that if so much of the handgun is hidden from sight that it cannot be clearly identified (generally recognizable) as a handgun, then it is not being carried openly.   In which case it becomes...............Concealed.

I remain anchored to that position.   However, at what point or percentage of cover it actually happens, I have no clue.   After all, every Open Carry handgun is significantly covered by the holster, whenever one is used.   Or the pants, when such handgun is simply stuck into the carrier's waistband.

But there are--must be--some generally recognizable parts sticking out, like the backstrap, grip, hammer, etc.    Otherwise..............................it's Concealed.  

So--you are welcome to disagree.

And we'll still be friends.

[And what about that military holster with the flap........................?]


sfg[/b]
 

[Dan W]

The portion of the statute I quoted was intentionally inserted into LB454. It was designed to eliminate the literally thousands of "definitions" of what constitutes concealed carry of a handgun.

And since it is the only legal definition on the books, I would state that it would have to be considered.

Open carry is not defined, but since the concealed parameters have been defined, everything else that does not meet the defintion of "concealed" is de facto open carry.

Prior to this definition, anything that law enforcement wanted to call concealed was concealed, and there was no basis in law to dispute it.

Now that this  basis is law, the law must prove that a handgun was concealed within that defintion in order to get a conviction.

That doesn't mean that they won't detain, arrest or attempt to prosecute you for unlicensed CCW, but it does mean that they will  have to prove that no part of the handgun was capable of being seen,  otherwise it is not a concealed handgun, and the charges will not stick if they can't prove that beyond a reasonable doubt . IANAL, but I did stay at a Holiday inn once

[Chris Z]

Or you could be William J. Hill, and carry your gun open in the car in Omaha..... Grip showing between the console and seat....... And when OPD pulls you over for going 80 in a 35, you TELL the officer the handgun is there..... And the Officer, Irene Cornett (now know as Senator Abby Cornett) writes in her report that she SAW the grip of the gun when she approached the vehicle.....

Yet Mr, Hill was arrested, charged and convicted of CCW. Conviction was later set aside after appeal.

[SemperFiGuy]

Whether Chris Z will admit it or not, he has made my point.

And even though you win on appeal, your money and your time are all gone.

Further,   there is much in between Open Carry and Concealed Carry.

For example, .................Brandishing.

Now, Dan:   I know you know the answer about that old military holster w/the teeny .38 Special M&P hidden way down inside.    C'mon, tell us!!!

Warm regards and sincere respect.   [Especially for all your work on this Forum.]



sfg

[Dan W]

No definition for brandishing in Nebraska either... :dink:

Nebraska Revised Statutes

Back to Nebraska State Laws Search.



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SO your point is that it does not matter what the law is?

[Chris Z]

My point is simply that no matter what the law says, or doesn't say.... Sometimes it doesn't matter.

The above case is a perfect example of how OPD will go to any length to "make the arrest" when it comes to guns. Because they have to try so darn hard to "look like they are tough on guns".

[FarmerRick]

Omaha is tough on guns... but much tougher on the guns' legal owners.

Just ask Mr. McCullough.


I wonder how that "gun turn-in program" will do today?  How many weapons used in crimes will be brought to the cops, never to be traced to the criminal that used them? 

Why throw the gun in the river when you can just give it to OPD, with "no questions asked"?    

[Dan W]

My point is simply that no matter what the law says, or doesn't say.... Sometimes it doesn't matter.

The above case is a perfect example of how OPD will go to any length to "make the arrest" when it comes to guns. Because they have to try so darn hard to "look like they are tough on guns".

Sorry my question was aimed at SFG. 

 

[tut]

Hmmm, I mis-read LB 817.  Seems I read it as Omaha (or any city/town) is not to enforce any registration, period.  This would include CCW holders, it would include non-CCW holders, it would include Uncle Harry or Joe-what's-his-face purchasing a concealable weapon at Guns Unlimited whether or not holding a CCW boot-lick certificate.  No registration.  Period.

Anyone read it differently?  I ask this due to a post here stating that CCW holders would not be prosecuted for having unregistered weapons per LB 817.  ...I disagree there in that I read 817 as no registration, period.  Please enlighten me as my reading skills may not be what they once were.

[Chris Z]

LB 817 ONLY exempts CHP holders


18-1703 Cities and villages shall not have the power
to regulate the ownership, possession, or transportation of a
concealed handgun, as such ownership, possession, or transportation
is authorized under the Concealed Handgun Permit Act, except as
expressly provided by state law, and shall not have the power
to require registration of a concealed handgun owned, possessed,
or transported by a permitholder under the act. Any existing
city or village ordinance, permit, or regulation regulating the
ownership, possession, or transportation of a concealed handgun,
as such ownership, possession, or transportation is authorized
under the act, except as expressly provided under state law, and
any existing city or village ordinance, permit, or regulation
requiring the registration of a concealed handgun owned, possessed,
or transported by a permitholder under the act, is declared to be
null and void as against any permitholder possessing a valid permit
under the act.