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Starting a new argument! Timers, Competition, and Cover...

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JTH:
John Wallace (of Midwest Tactical Solutions) has a training/commentary blog in which he periodically writes some posts discussing various aspects of training.

Since Shawn and I haven't gotten in any arguments lately :) I thought I'd comment on some of the things that John wrote...and after some reading, instead of just posting here on the forum I finally decided that the PRT blog should get started.  I'd been meaning to do it for quite some time, but never quite got around to it.

Reading John's posts gave me a number of ideas, and in particular I had to comment on his "Cover" post, so thanks to John the Precision Response Training blog is now a reality.

John recently wrote a series of articles with the common theme of "Things to Consider Before Chasing the Timer," discussing target choice, movement, use of cover, and target discrimination.  (There is one more topic forthcoming, too, on randomness.) 

While there is a lot of good stuff there, I occasionally have a difference of opinion on specifics, and other times agree but from a different perspective. 

So, I went and responded to his posting on "Cover," since he quoted me in it--and here's the post:  http://precisionresponse.wordpress.com/2013/08/26/timers-competition-and-self-defense-part-i/

Thoughts?  Yes?  No?  I have no idea what I'm talking about? (I should not write a book every time I post?) Feel free to leave comments on the blog, too.

kozball:
If you ask the same question to 10 people, you might get 10 different answers. Those answers are what people believe to be true, whether they are correct or not.

I believe that all of you, Thomas, Shawn, John and David teach a certain type of class to reach out to a certain kind of customer. It all has merit in the grand scheme of things.

I have shot some USPSA matches, (not very good mind you ), sometimes there are some barriers, and sometimes not. But, to me, the whole idea is to engage the scoring zones as fast as possible, with movement and reloads. Cover is not part of the ideology of USPSA. The stress is created by the timer, and bulls eye accuracy is not required to score well.

Now, when the day comes that I partake in a Carbine Class, I would expect that cover and concealment would be a big part of it. 2 completely different aspects of training.

Like I said, I believe that any training done properly has merit. It is ultimately up to the trainee as to what is required to further their training and what they are trying to achieve with that training. They are different philosophies with different results.

Then again, ( my pet peeve ) I would like to see some of the MANY firearms owners get off their backsides and do something, anything. Training would be good. Lots of choices to get lots of different results. Swallow your pride and hide your inhibitions, everyone started sometime. I would rather see someone try a Steel Challenge or USPSA / IPDA and do poorly than do nothing. The results actually mean nothing except for what you make them to be.

These are just my opinions, not fact.  ;D

Mudinyeri:
Thomas, I think at a very high, conceptual level the questions you pose (quoted below) are legitimate. 


--- Quote ---Do you normally use effective cover when you play baseball?  How about basketball?  Why would you then use or practice it in any other type of sport in which it has no value?  So why would you critically analyze someone’s actions in a sport in light of requirements that don’t exist in that sport?
--- End quote ---

However, as with most analogies, the concept begins to break down as you peel away the layers of the onion.  To be a top-notch competitor in any sport, one must practice, practice, practice.  Other things must suffer at the expense of one's pursuit of competitive perfection.  In the shooting sports, one develops competitive shooting habits that, being so similar to non-competitive shooting habits, can dilute or pollute one's ability to shoot defensively ... or hunt for that matter.

Dan and I were talking about trap and skeet shooting at the member meeting and the differences between these competitive shooting sports and hunting.  I mentioned how upland game bird hunting poorly prepared me for trap shooting and how trap shooting ended up ruining a lot of good meat.  Conversely, I seriously doubt that my pursuit of a professional baseball career (if I chose to do so) would pollute/dilute my shooting skills.  The muscle memory is significantly different and there is a low likelihood of muscle confusion.  I think this is where your premise breaks down and where competitive shooting can create "bad habits" for non-competitive shooting and vice versa.

wallace11bravo:
One thing I'll note, Thomas is 100% correct about me seeing shooting as a combat act, to wit:

I really can't knock any off-the-street civilian for not being into the whole "practical/tactical" side of rifle/carbine shooting. If all you want to do with your AR is game or hunt, go for it. I cannot fault you, because:

You probably don't carry around your AR on a daily basis, and the chances of needing to defend oneself with deadly force are so miniscule to begin with, that the chances of your AR even being practically accessible in a more common civilian-self-defense situation is about like winning the lottery... without ever buying a ticket.

Although there is some cross over from competition and combat into self defense, if your true concern is being prepared for a mugging in a parking lot (or some other more common/practical SD scenario), I'd point you toward Thomas. That is what his training is focused on, and that is why I go to him for that training (when my schedule can work...).

True, there are a few incidents, within my lifetime, where having combat skills with an AR may have been useful for your off-the-street civilians. The LA riots, Hurricane Katrina, or if your rifle/carbine is part of your home defense plan (a whole other bucket of worms I don't care to knock over right now). If that is what you are oriented towards, or you are law enforcement, security, or military, then I have training a bit more focused for you. Or if you just find it fun to learn another perspective on tactics and shooting, come on out.

Another thing I'll note, and I tell officers this and they generally agree. Most LE officers that teach a patrol rifle course are predominantly teaching shooting and tactics that are adapted from pistol shooting and tactics for your everyday patrol officer, which are not that unlike civilian SD techniques.

My personal opinion, if you are LE (or security, or whatever), and something has happened that has caused you to take your AR out of the rack in your cruiser or armory or whatever, that event (in and of itself) has introduced, at the very least, a semi-permissive environment. Your mindset needs to change along with that environmental change. Trying to apply the same techniques/methods to a non-permissive or semi-permissive environment as you would to a permissive environment has been shown to not work well both on a micro and macro level. (ALOT more to this, but I don't care to write a book right now)

JTH:

--- Quote from: Mudinyeri on August 26, 2013, 01:29:55 PM ---Thomas, I think at a very high, conceptual level the questions you pose (quoted below) are legitimate. 

However, as with most analogies, the concept begins to break down as you peel away the layers of the onion.  To be a top-notch competitor in any sport, one must practice, practice, practice.  Other things must suffer at the expense of one's pursuit of competitive perfection.
--- End quote ---

Agreed.  If you practice certain things, you will (hopefully) become good at them.  And since other things are not being practiced, you won't become good at those.

Which makes you just as bad as anyone else who doesn't practice them, yes?  It doesn't make you worse at them than other people who don't practice.


--- Quote ---In the shooting sports, one develops competitive shooting habits that, being so similar to non-competitive shooting habits, can dilute or pollute one's ability to shoot defensively ... or hunt for that matter.
--- End quote ---

I'm not really sure this is true.  Again--are we talking about people who practice competition shooting AND practice defensive shooting?  Or people who just practice competition shooting?

Because if it is just the latter, of course they aren't necessarily good at skills that only occur in defensive shooting.  Just like anyone else who hasn't practiced it.


--- Quote ---Dan and I were talking about trap and skeet shooting at the member meeting and the differences between these competitive shooting sports and hunting.  I mentioned how upland game bird hunting poorly prepared me for trap shooting and how trap shooting ended up ruining a lot of good meat.
--- End quote ---

How did trap shooting ruin a lot of good meat?  (I understand how game bird hunting wouldn't prepare you for trap shooting---after all, they require similar but different skills.)  I am assuming that you are saying that you started as a hunter, tried trap shooting, practiced trap shooting, and that this somehow changed how you hunted.  Yes? 

What difference did it make?  And why?


--- Quote ---  Conversely, I seriously doubt that my pursuit of a professional baseball career (if I chose to do so) would pollute/dilute my shooting skills.  The muscle memory is significantly different and there is a low likelihood of muscle confusion.  I think this is where your premise breaks down and where competitive shooting can create "bad habits" for non-competitive shooting and vice versa.
--- End quote ---

My point is that for the most part, what we consider defensive skills are either 1) exactly the same as competition shooting skills, for example grip, stance, trigger control, accuracy, and speed, or 2) normally not practiced in competition shooting (such as use of cover). In the #2 case, people who don't learn them are of course bad at them.  People who DO learn them aren't having any other habits that get in the way.

Sure, in a competition I don't use cover, and have no problem sticking my pistol through a port if it will save me time.  And yet, I don't have any problem NOT doing that with a pistol when practicing situations that have defensive elements to them.  I don't have difficulty using skills appropriate to the situation, and it is incredibly easy to differentiate between a competition situation and a self-defense situation---therefore it is easy to operate in the correct mode, if you have practiced that mode and those skills.

A lot of people use the "do we think that NASCAR drivers are bad at highway driving" method of discussing this---which I think has a lot of validity.  Do we think that professional drivers are somehow worse at defensive driving due to their practice, practice, practice at competition?

I think that they have no issue telling the difference between situations, and thus no trouble using the appropriate skillset.  In a similar fashion, I don't really see why people who shoot competitions would have difficulty using the appropriate skill set when in fear for their lives--as long as they actually practiced that differing skillset.

Without that practice, of course, they would be just as bad as anyone else who didn't practice it---but could shoot fast and accurately.

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