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Author Topic: Tactical Application of the Defensive Sidearm  (Read 1231 times)

Offline kozball

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Tactical Application of the Defensive Sidearm
« on: August 29, 2013, 09:47:45 AM »
Found this article today from John Mosby. I like his writings and found this to be a good read.
Alot of you ( not me, sorry to say ) teach / practice this, and more of us should get onboard, if not for ourselves, how about our families.



A little snippet


"The root word of “gunfight” is not gun. The root word is “fight.” The frightening truth, to the “I’ve got a gun, so why do I need to fight?” crowd is that, if you don’t know how to fight, you’re never going to get your gun into action, and most people simply do not know how to fight, especially when guns and knives are part of the equation.

If you don’t know how to fight, you’re never going to get your gun into action. Can you execute your flawless, sub-1:00 second draw stroke when a bad guy is blowing his decayed tooth and meth breath in your face, as he’s trying to knock your weapon out of your hand? Can you execute your flawless, sub-1:00 second draw stroke when the steroid-shooting, iron pumping bad guy is banging punches, left-right-left-right-left-right, trying to take your ****ing head off with every one? It’s okay to admit the truth that you cannot, because no one is watching you right now, so you can be honest. Not for me, because I don’t give a ****. Not for the other readers, because they’re not the ones who will be there to help. You only need to be honest with yourself."

Full article here

http://mountainguerrilla.wordpress.com/2013/08/28/underground-tradecraft-tactical-application-of-the-defensive-sidearm-part-three/

\"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn\'t pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same.\"

Ronald Reagan

Offline JTH

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Re: Tactical Application of the Defensive Sidearm
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2013, 10:21:12 AM »
If you don’t know how to fight, you’re never going to get your gun into action. Can you execute your flawless, sub-1:00 second draw stroke when a bad guy is blowing his decayed tooth and meth breath in your face, as he’s trying to knock your weapon out of your hand? Can you execute your flawless, sub-1:00 second draw stroke when the steroid-shooting, iron pumping bad guy is banging punches, left-right-left-right-left-right, trying to take your ****ing head off with every one? It’s okay to admit the truth that you cannot, because no one is watching you right now, so you can be honest. Not for me, because I don’t give a ****. Not for the other readers, because they’re not the ones who will be there to help. You only need to be honest with yourself."

There was a reason that I made everyone do their draw with everyone watching and listening for the time at the NFOA meeting---and why at the end you weren't trying to beat the clock, but instead beat everyone else.  It wasn't much stress, but it wasn't "none" either.

(And no, we didn't record scores, so no one remembers what your draw was actually like---except you.  Have you allowed that information to make a difference in your self-defense practice?  Or have you just forgotten or ignored it?)

If you have a 3-second draw under no stress, you aren't going to get better under stress, and that is a LONG time in which the bad guy can do horrible things to you.  (And over half the people on the line at the NFOA workshop had a draw over 5 seconds.)

If you have a 1-second draw under no stress---great!   ....now practice WITH stress and make sure you can still do it and get shots on target in the same amount of time.

What were Tom Givens' rules again?
1) Have a gun
2) Fight

If you can't do one of those two things, it isn't going to work.  (You need both.)  And practicing for self-defense isn't just about shooting skills.
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Offline JTH

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Re: Tactical Application of the Defensive Sidearm
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2013, 10:53:18 AM »
...that all being said, after reading the entirety of the article, I disagree strongly with the majority of his contentions in the article.

Various quotes that I think don't apply to the majority of self-defense situations:
  • Are you able to plant your thumb in his eye and feel the fluids and jelly-like consistency of viscous fluids as you gouge it out of his skull?
  • Are you ABLE to eat a punch, delivered with skill, precision, and force, by someone who’s delivered hundreds, if not thousands of them, in real fights, and may be completely convicted in his belief that his punch will crush your facial bones?
  • Are you ABLE to keep fighting, even as you feel your eyeball get popped out of your skull, despite the pain and terror?
  • Are you ABLE to shut out the pain and fear of feeling and hearing your bones break in your arm or leg?
  • Can you suffer all of that, and still be ABLE to punch, kick, grapple, or even just bite your way to victory?
  • You need to be able to move, left, right, or forward, aggressively and fast, while creating the opportunity to create havoc and despair on the enemy, even as he’s trying to kill you.
  • I would argue that 80-90% of your training for defensive shooting with the sidearm should take place inside of three feet, shooting from retention. Adding the ability to work up a solid, exhausted sweat, through a series of combatives drills immediately prior to each shot will do even better for you. It sucks, and its work, but it’s far more effective than gnat’s eye shooting at 50 feet.:"

I could pick more---but much of this article seems to be from the perspective of "every self-defense situation is one in which the guy is a 250 pound monster on meth AND PCP who immediately (and with surprise) is in your face trying to rip your head off, who doesn't feel pain, knows you have a gun and is trying to steal it and shoot you with it, has national-level boxing and fighting skills, and blah blah blah you must learn to be an amazing tough guy otherwise you have no chance blah blah blah."

It doesn't happen that way, most of the time.  I'm not saying that situation can't occur---but mostly, it doesn't.  And most people don't have the TIME (or the inclination, or the need, or the physical ability) to spend learning multiple combatives, how to take a punch, how to grapple, how to....all of it.

He keeps using the word "need."  As in, "you NEED to do this" and "you NEED to do that".

No, you don't.

I'll all for people getting empty-hand defense training.  (Heck, I've been teaching martial arts in Nebraska since 1997.)  I'll all for people learning the retention position, shooting on the move, one-handed shooting, CQT----matter of fact, I've got classes that include all of those things.

And yet---I'd much rather that most people start by being able to draw and hit a 6" circle at 7 yards in 1.5 seconds, with four shots total in 2.5 seconds.  You know why?  Because the vast majority of defensive gun uses can be successfully completed if you can do just that.  (Can YOU do that?  Under stress?)

Most of the time, it DOESN'T take "combatives" (whatever most people mean by that), it doesn't take shooting from retention, and you don't need know whether or not you can "take a punch."  Yes, sometimes it does, and I strongly suggest you get additional training in those things.

But saying that you aren't learning self-defense unless you can "plant your thumb in his eye and feel the fluids and jelly-like consistency of viscous fluids as you gouge it out of his skull" --- all that is going to do is cause FEWER people to train for self-defense, because they'll look at his list of "you NEED to do this" requirements, and they'll decide that they just can't do it all, so they won't do any of it.  (Yay human nature.)

He says:  "I would argue that 80-90% of your training for defensive shooting with the sidearm should take place inside of three feet, shooting from retention."  I strongly disagree with this.  For many reasons (among them, that people suck enough at shooting without deliberately training to never use the sights) but mostly because in the defensive gun uses that occur, this isn't where most happen

It DOES happen, yes.  But if we are going set our training to prioritize skills that apply to the majority of situations, then learn retention, but it shouldn't be the majority of your training.

Start by being able to shoot at a 6" target at 7 yards.  Then be able to draw and shoot a 6" target at 7 yards.  Then learn to draw and shoot a 6" target at 7 yards fast.  Then be able to draw and shoot a 6" target at 7 yards fast under stress.

After that, if you want to do more, then do more.   

Make your decisions based on what the research says actually happens.
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Offline Mudinyeri

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Re: Tactical Application of the Defensive Sidearm
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2013, 11:21:59 AM »
I could pick more---but much of this article seems to be from the perspective of "every self-defense situation is one in which the guy is a 250 pound monster on meth AND PCP who immediately (and with surprise) is in your face trying to rip your head off, who doesn't feel pain, knows you have a gun and is trying to steal it and shoot you with it, has national-level boxing and fighting skills, and blah blah blah you must learn to be an amazing tough guy otherwise you have no chance blah blah blah."

Or ... he's trying to prepare his students and readers for the worst case scenario.  In which case, they should also be prepared for the "average" scenario.

Offline JTH

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Re: Tactical Application of the Defensive Sidearm
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2013, 12:08:17 PM »
Or ... he's trying to prepare his students and readers for the worst case scenario.  In which case, they should also be prepared for the "average" scenario.

Only if techniques for dealing with the worst case scenario are the same techniques used for the "average" scenario---and the majority of scenarios.

And shooting from a retention 2 position (which what I assume he means when he says "retention", since SouthNarc's ECQC class is what he references, which really IS a great class for these techniques) which he suggests for 80-90% of your practice, is not the appropriate or most effective technique for dealing with an average scenario, and certainly not the majority of scenarios.  (Matter of fact, it would be a great way to make certain that you will NOT make good hits in the "average" situation.)

I'm all for his push for realism.  However, it makes more sense for said "realism" to be based on reality.
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Offline Lorimor

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Re: Tactical Application of the Defensive Sidearm
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2013, 06:32:22 PM »
I guess I have to refer back to Tom Given's student's encounters.  No gouged eyeballs.  Most engagements occurred at one car length or slightly less.  Those two students who lost, "forfeited" in Tom's view, were not carrying their gun at the time they were attacked.

It's good to have all kinds of tools in the toolbox naturally, but honestly, if some amp'ed up meth head manages to get near me and starts whacking me in the head, I'm probably done for.   

I'm not 45 anymore. :)

Craig Douglas, aka "SouthNarc" who is a certifiably dangerous individual IMHO, teaches his famous "ECQC" course.  In his opinion, where most folk screw up is they hesitate and fail to draw their weapon in time. 

I'd love to take his class, but it'd probably kill me. 

Situational awareness is your friend!!!

Besides, these days, I'm too busy preparing for an attack by the Swedish Bikini Team. 
"It is better to avoid than to run; better to run than to de-escalate; better to de-escalate than to fight; better to fight than to die. The very essence of self-defense is a thin list of things that might get you out alive when you are already screwed." – Rory Miller

Offline JTH

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Re: Tactical Application of the Defensive Sidearm
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2013, 02:57:14 PM »
Craig Douglas, aka "SouthNarc" who is a certifiably dangerous individual IMHO, teaches his famous "ECQC" course.  In his opinion, where most folk screw up is they hesitate and fail to draw their weapon in time

This.  This this this this this THIS THIS THIS THIS.

Ahem.  I believe the part in bold is important.

(He has a video of the MUC section of his class---Managing Unknown Contacts---and while I have not seen it, I'm planning on buying it as I've read a number of things he has written that he includes in that video, and they seem spot-on and extremely relevant.)
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Offline Lorimor

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Re: Tactical Application of the Defensive Sidearm
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2013, 07:35:32 AM »
"It is better to avoid than to run; better to run than to de-escalate; better to de-escalate than to fight; better to fight than to die. The very essence of self-defense is a thin list of things that might get you out alive when you are already screwed." – Rory Miller