NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
General Categories => General Firearm Discussion => Topic started by: shooter on January 09, 2014, 01:40:43 PM
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I been thinking about all the people who are buying the 22 ammo, then trying to sell it online,
Why dosent the ATF go after them, they are buying the ammo with the intent or reselling it for a profit, to my thinking that is being a dealer. so if they don't have a FFL, they are dealing without a liscense.
for some reason this makes sense to me,
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Do you need an FFL to sell ammo? We have hardware stores around here that sell ammo and not guns. I always assumed that was because they did not want to hassle with an FFL? It would be nice though if people would just refuse to buy from the scalpers. The market would get back to normal faster if that happened.
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to sell ammo to the public, you must have a ffl. and a sales tax number.
Its the intent to make a profit that gets you .
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Please provide reference for such a statement.....
to sell ammo to the public, you must have a ffl. and a sales tax number.
Its the intent to make a profit that gets you .
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damn that's a awful thick book to look thru. but ill try and see if I can find it
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That only applies to manufacturers. If I reload and sell it at cost to someone, no problem (as far as the FFL issue goes). If I reload and sell for profit, I have to have a manufacturer's license. If I horde and speculate on commercially manufactured .22 or other ammo I may be a jerk, but there is no FFL class for that.
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If you reload ammo and sell it you need a type 6 liscense, IF you reload the customers own brass and return it to him you don't need a liscense
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Yep..... and that's lawyer talkin'
If I horde and speculate on commercially manufactured .22 or other ammo I may be a jerk, but there is no FFL class for that.
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I think (And there is very little intel behind this) The only issue may be the tax on the profit. BUT a tax was already paid at the store, sooo GRAY AREA?
There is the Free market ideals, sure, but there is also being a big ol butthead.
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I think (And there is very little intel behind this) The only issue may be the tax on the profit. BUT a tax was already paid at the store, sooo GRAY AREA?
There is the Free market ideals, sure, but there is also being a big ol butthead.
Yep. Tax was paid once. If you decide to sell it to someone else, you can. For whatever price you like. It isn't always quite that cut-and-dried, but for the the most part, in this described situation, that's it.
I, for one, am not particularly inclined to wish the government to decide this situation needs more laws. And telling the ATF to go after people selling ammo (not as dealers, nor in bulk, merely re-selling ammunition they bought retail) just because people don't like their prices----yeah, not real big on that idea.
Yeah, those prices are ridiculous, and "big ol butthead" it about the kindest term I'd use. Nonetheless, completely legal. And I don't particularly want that to change.
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If you're doing a small amount, it kind of falls under the "garage sale" clause. Nobody is really going to care.
However, if you're doing it on a regular basis, buying and selling ammo to supplement your income, you *should* be reporting that income on your income taxes. Will you get caught if you don't? Probably not. However, that doesn't make it legal or right.
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Never thought I'd see the day someone on here advocates for the ATF to get involved with private ammo sales.. :o
Only one way to stop the scalping and that's to NOT BUY SCALPED AMMO and shame/scorn/ridicule anyone who does buy it at those prices. It'll end better if peer and market pressures end it than if Holder's Posse gets involved.
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According to the IRS, if you turn a profit on ANY commodity or service then you should pay taxes on it. Garage sale items are typically exempt because nearly every item has depreciated value and is worth less than originally paid by the seller. If I bought gold at $300/oz (I WISH!) and sold it for $1900/oz then the IRS considers that taxable income to be reported. Same thing goes for a collector car, a gun, ammo, my grandmother's cinnamon rolls... etc... regardless, the 16th Amendment wasn't ratified anyways.. :D hey-o! jk, pay your taxes, or go to debtors prison!
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My coworker was at the Walmart in Irvington the other day at 7 am right when they stocked the shelves. Low and behold several guys jumped in line right behind him to scoop up all the ammo. Who were these fellas you ask? Well, they just happen to be Walmart employees on their timely break... Getting the feeling that this has happened often, he pressed them on what they shoot and not a single one of them could name a valid 22LR firearm (make and model)... let that sink in a little bit!
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If you're doing a small amount, it kind of falls under the "garage sale" clause. Nobody is really going to care.
Not really. "Garage sale" clause sorts of things, as mentioned by someone else, are due to the understood level of depreciation. Technically should still be reported, mostly no one worries about them.
However, anything that could not have undergone any similar level of depreciation, like re-selling ammunition, parts, or anything else----you are definitely supposed to report. No matter how little you do it or how little you made.
However, if you're doing it on a regular basis, buying and selling ammo to supplement your income, you *should* be reporting that income on your income taxes. Will you get caught if you don't? Probably not. However, that doesn't make it legal or right.
True whether or not it is a "regular basis."
That, however, is a completely separate issue (reporting income on your taxes) from the original comments, which were about the need for an FFL or a business license, both of which you do NOT need.
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My coworker was at the Walmart in Irvington the other day at 7 am right when they stocked the shelves. Low and behold several guys jumped in line right behind him to scoop up all the ammo. Who were these fellas you ask? Well, they just happen to be Walmart employees on their timely break... Getting the feeling that this has happened often, he pressed them on what they shoot and not a single one of them could name a valid 22LR firearm (make and model)... let that sink in a little bit!
I think it would be a valid concern of the Walmart management that their employees are keeping the stores retail customers from buying ammo by their unfair use of insider information and are essentially creating a black market for ammunition and costing Walmart customers, loss of good will, possibly also making management complicit in the tax avoidance scheme
I say we send a few emails to Walrmart store managers >:D
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I think it would be a valid concern of the Walmart management that their employees are keeping the stores retail customers from buying ammo by their unfair use of insider information and are essentially creating a black market for ammunition and costing Walmart customers, loss of good will, possibly also making management complicit in the tax avoidance scheme
I say we send a few emails to Walrmart store managers >:D
I'm going there tomorrow over my lunch. If inventory levels are empty then I will be personally speaking with a manager. I've already talked to one of their managers but I didn't have enough time to press it further. It would be difficult to press unless I personally saw it happen, or if my coworker can remember the date and time that he was there so they could review video footage.
On a somewhat related note, maybe the winter and recent severe cold snap will provide manufacturers with a time to catch up with demand. Personally, I don't do very much or hardly any indoor shooting so the cold weather has kept me off the range for a while now... perhaps collectively they can finally make some headway.
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I know, I don't really want the bat fags to go after them, but it just really pisses me off, these people probably don't even shoot, they just see a way to make a fast buck,
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If I sell my 22 ammo that I had been collecting for years since the current administration somehow won the election for a large sum of money, I will not show any profit because storing it for all these years has cost me money. I may actually have to show a loss on my taxes because it has taken up space that should have been used for things like food.
That being said, in the last couple years, I have given a lot away to people I know and only expecting them to replace it if and when they can.
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My coworker was at the Walmart in Irvington the other day at 7 am right when they stocked the shelves. Low and behold several guys jumped in line right behind him to scoop up all the ammo. Who were these fellas you ask? Well, they just happen to be Walmart employees on their timely break... Getting the feeling that this has happened often, he pressed them on what they shoot and not a single one of them could name a valid 22LR firearm (make and model)... let that sink in a little bit!
lol, a Walmart employee conspiracy! Come on get real. This "insider information"? They literally will tell you what days the trucks come in and approximately what time they usually get the ammo to the floor. Hell, if you call and ask them to check the next manifest (usually a day before it arrives) they'll tell you IF there's even .22 ammo on the truck coming! The rest is up to you to get there and buy it before someone else does. God forbid those employees might be picking ammo up for friends/family on their one 15 minute break of the day... I mean there are SO many other perks to working at Wallyworld clearly. The only issue that should be had with this is if there were 10 boxes of ammo and 10 customers already lined up and the employees cut in line. Otherwise it's first come first serve and I don't see an issue with it at all.
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I think it would be a valid concern of the Walmart management that their employees are keeping the stores retail customers from buying ammo by their unfair use of insider information and are essentially creating a black market for ammunition and costing Walmart customers, loss of good will, possibly also making management complicit in the tax avoidance scheme
I say we send a few emails to Walrmart store managers >:D
They limit you to like two boxes of ammo per person. at 14 dollars a person do you even know how many employees would have to be doing this to make "management complicit in the tax avoidance scheme"? Why bring ammo out to the floor to be seen by customers at all then? Why wouldn't they just call dibs as soon as they saw the quantity coming in? I mean I'm just as frustrated as the rest of you but when you start talking about black markets being caused by dirty break taking walmart employees using insider information to buy 2 boxes of .22 ammo to resell one or twice a week just makes this whole thread sound like a bunch of crazies talking. No offense.
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lol, a Walmart employee conspiracy! Come on get real. This "insider information"? They literally will tell you what days the trucks come in and approximately what time they usually get the ammo to the floor. Hell, if you call and ask them to check the next manifest (usually a day before it arrives) they'll tell you IF there's even .22 ammo on the truck coming! The rest is up to you to get there and buy it before someone else does. God forbid those employees might be picking ammo up for friends/family on their one 15 minute break of the day... I mean there are SO many other perks to working at Wallyworld clearly. The only issue that should be had with this is if there were 10 boxes of ammo and 10 customers already lined up and the employees cut in line. Otherwise it's first come first serve and I don't see an issue with it at all.
Actually, every time I have asked, they have told me that they are not even sure what's on the truck, and they can't get that info.
Are they lieing,...? I don't know, but I have never gotten any info like that from a wally-world employee about guns or ammo.
& it's 3 boxes.....
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I've had the ones in Papillion and Bellevue tell me what ammo was supposed to be on the overnight truck.
I wasn't interested in what was inbound that day so I didn't go in. One of them (Papillion I think) had .22 coming in the next day.
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I think almost all of us are for a free market system. When something becomes short in supply and people can't find something at the price they want, suddenly they jump to "There oughta be a law!" Is it any wonder how we have gotten to the current level of Government intrusion? Frankly, I am amazed we have lasted as long as we have and fear the end of this country as we know it will happen in my lifetime.
I work 50-60 hours a week and can find ammo almost regularly. I am not reselling, though. I have thought about it, but the hassle is not worth the $10 I might make. Those that are reselling are only speculating and that happens whereever there is oppurtunity. God bless America.
Butch up, Sally and figure out why you are suffering in the current situation and do your best to see that it won't next time. I have come to some conclusions myself and am doing what I can to be ready for anything that might happen in the future. I have realized that my priorities were not in order and I am changing them.
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Actually, every time I have asked, they have told me that they are not even sure what's on the truck, and they can't get that info.
Are they lieing,...? I don't know, but I have never gotten any info like that from a wally-world employee about guns or ammo.
& it's 3 boxes.....
I'd ask to speak to the dept supervisor. And here in hastings its 2 per person and I've had very little trouble getting some.
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I think almost all of us are for a free market system. When something becomes short in supply and people can't find something at the price they want, suddenly they jump to "There oughta be a law!" Is it any wonder how we have gotten to the current level of Government intrusion? Frankly, I am amazed we have lasted as long as we have and fear the end of this country as we know it will happen in my lifetime.
I work 50-60 hours a week and can find ammo almost regularly. I am not reselling, though. I have thought about it, but the hassle is not worth the $10 I might make. Those that are reselling are only speculating and that happens whereever there is oppurtunity. God bless America.
Butch up, Sally and figure out why you are suffering in the current situation and do your best to see that it won't next time. I have come to some conclusions myself and am doing what I can to be ready for anything that might happen in the future. I have realized that my priorities were not in order and I am changing them.
I nominate this for best post of the thread.
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I'd ask to speak to the dept supervisor. And here in hastings its 2 per person and I've had very little trouble getting some.
That is since they got rid of an employee that was holding it for people from a local gun shop. Last time I was there it a 3 box limit. I no longer bless Chinamart with my presence, so I don't care what they have. At least they have never gouged on their prices.
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I nominate this for best post of the thread.
With my second I believe the motion will carry.
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I wasn't saying anything about tax fraud with managers being complicit though I saw someone else did. I've gone to that Walmart twice a week for several months straight and have yet to see any 22LR. My coworker was there before they said they usually put out the ammo. I know working for Walmart would generally suck really bad so really any perk for them is better than nothing. I don't want there to be any new laws guarding against market speculation of ammo and think the best course of action is to stop buying from scalpers. The guy stocking the shelves could very easily be paging his buddies and telling them that it is available and it just really is an annoyance when I go in there as often as I do and come up empty handed every time... maybe I should give up fishing too since that is what it feels like, getting skunked.
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I wasn't saying anything about tax fraud with managers being complicit though I saw someone else did. I've gone to that Walmart twice a week for several months straight and have yet to see any 22LR. My coworker was there before they said they usually put out the ammo. I know working for Walmart would generally suck really bad so really any perk for them is better than nothing. I don't want there to be any new laws guarding against market speculation of ammo and think the best course of action is to stop buying from scalpers. The guy stocking the shelves could very easily be paging his buddies and telling them that it is available and it just really is an annoyance when I go in there as often as I do and come up empty handed every time... maybe I should give up fishing too since that is what it feels like, getting skunked.
Im just saying usually the people that get the .22 ammo even here in hastings are there 30 minutes before the sporting good area officially opens for the day. It sucks but thats just how it is right now. Really you have two options as I see it. Fight fire with fire and make friends with a wallyworld employee or try to Black Friday shop on a weekly basis. Another thing to consider is, by the time youve wasted gas driving there twice a week or whatever you said, then the time you wasted and factor all that together maybe it's less of an expense just buying online or driving to a place that usually always has some on the shelves, like say Cabelas? I drive up there quite a bit from Hastings to get ammo, it's a good hour drive both ways but sometimes thats just what it takes anymore.
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I stop at that one because it is on my way to and from work. If I get a grocery list from the wife I'll swing through the ammo aisle. I'm not supper pissed or anything that it's not there. My coworker that encountered the well timed employees sold me some rounds at cost out of his stock so I'm good.
Fight fire with fire and make friends with a wallyworld employee
I started chuckling out loud when I read that. The last employee to help me there was a granny so the image of her doing black market ammo dealing really busted me up! Thanks!
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I stop at that one because it is on my way to and from work. If I get a grocery list from the wife I'll swing through the ammo aisle. I'm not supper pissed or anything that it's not there. My coworker that encountered the well timed employees sold me some rounds at cost out of his stock so I'm good.
I started chuckling out loud when I read that. The last employee to help me there was a granny so the image of her doing black market ammo dealing really busted me up! Thanks!
black mar·ket
noun
1.
an illegal traffic or trade in officially controlled or scarce commodities.
"they planned to sell the meat on the black market"
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black mar·ket
noun
1.
an illegal traffic or trade in officially controlled or scarce commodities.
"they planned to sell the meat on the black market"
Would you have preferred "back room dealing" or the image of her "giving me the low down on the next shipping manifest" in place of the term black market? Either way it was joke so don't be that guy that comes back and drops a definition copied over.
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Im just saying usually the people that get the .22 ammo even here in hastings are there 30 minutes before the sporting good area officially opens for the day. It sucks but thats just how it is right now. Really you have two options as I see it. Fight fire with fire and make friends with a wallyworld employee or try to Black Friday shop on a weekly basis. Another thing to consider is, by the time youve wasted gas driving there twice a week or whatever you said, then the time you wasted and factor all that together maybe it's less of an expense just buying online or driving to a place that usually always has some on the shelves, like say Cabelas? I drive up there quite a bit from Hastings to get ammo, it's a good hour drive both ways but sometimes thats just what it takes anymore.
I don't go to Cabelas regularly, no matter what my wife says, and I haven't been able to get 22 since March of 2013. But between Wallworld and Guns Unlimited I have managed to pick up some. It's largely a matter of timing.
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Would you have preferred "back room dealing" or the image of her "giving me the low down on the next shipping manifest" in place of the term black market? Either way it was joke so don't be that guy that comes back and drops a definition copied over.
How is it back room dealing if someone just gives you a heads up when they see some ammo come in, and you still have to get there and be in line before it's sold out?
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I don't go to Cabelas regularly, no matter what my wife says, and I haven't been able to get 22 since March of 2013. But between Wallworld and Guns Unlimited I have managed to pick up some. It's largely a matter of timing.
Timing is definitely key.
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How is it back room dealing if someone just gives you a heads up when they see some ammo come in, and you still have to get there and be in line before it's sold out?
Again, the image that popped in my head was of a granny using her Walmart behind the scene info to run an ammo selling ring. In no way was it supported by reality or intended to assume that is what is actually happening.
The point of a mental visualization like that is to induce a comedic reaction. I wished to share that visualization. That was it.
I've used tips from friends, employees and other avenues to procure ammo but it doesn't negate the fact that inside normal channels, even with hot tips, a lot of people have been unable to find ammo. Of course we'll use other methods to get ammo that don't make the cost of procurement sky high and that was the point of the OP. Retail outlets are one place where the market has corrected. It would just be nice to buy ammo at prices that are reasonable. I think we can all agree on that.
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That only applies to manufacturers. If I reload and sell it at cost to someone, no problem (as far as the FFL issue goes). If I reload and sell for profit, I have to have a manufacturer's license. If I horde and speculate on commercially manufactured .22 or other ammo I may be a jerk, but there is no FFL class for that.
Reloads: Nope.
See also:
http://nebraskafirearms.org/forum/index.php/topic,8797.0.html (http://nebraskafirearms.org/forum/index.php/topic,8797.0.html)
Skipping the Class 6 'livelihood/profit' thing... that's a cheap license and if you wanna spend thousands of dollars on legal fees arguing 'livelihood/profit' instead of $30 on the FFL, you're silly.
The DDTC registration - good luck with that :D