NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
General Categories => General Firearm Discussion => Topic started by: JTH on January 30, 2014, 11:21:37 AM
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In another thread, there were some comments about hand-held lights (HHL) and lanyards, which lead me to think about handhelds versus weapon-mounted lights (WML). And how about lasers in combo with WML? Or lasers by themselves? (That isn't included in the poll, but feel free to talk about them.)
So---what you do think? What do you prefer? (I'll note that the poll above assumes that if you can't even manage a light in your home, you won't be using a light for carry, either. If you do have a light for carry but somehow lose it every time you step into your house, please think about that for a moment.) And yes, WML on shotguns and rifles DO count if that is what you use for home defense.
VOTE IN THE POLL BEFORE YOU RESPOND TO THIS THREAD! (And even if you DON'T want to type a response to this thread, vote in the poll.) Having information about what people really do in this area makes a good backdrop to discussion.
I was observing a self-defense seminar awhile back, and the presenter (a police officer) discussed how he was strongly against WMLs, as it meant that in the darkness you were automatically going to point your gun at whatever you wanted to look at, and you would hate to point your gun at your child in the middle of the night in your house when you were checking on a strange sound. Thoughts? (I know I have an opinion about that statement.)
Other people are all about using lasers, especially for carry weapons or dim-light situations in which you can discern your attacker, but where sights would be blurry. Thoughts?
For your hand-held----lanyard? O-ring? Bare light? Do you strobe? :)
Why do you use what you do?
I can think of pros and cons for pretty much any choice (big surprise) so it'll be interesting to see how people rate the importance of those pros and cons when making their personal choices.
I personally use a hand-held light with lanyard for carry, and a weapon-mounted light/laser combination (WML/L) combo on the home defense gun.
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I don't normally carry a light on my person because frankly, I have too much crap to carry around as it is. I think it's a good idea, but there comes a point where I'm just toting around too much stuff. A weapon mounted one would be more convenient, but then you run into problems with finding holsters that will fit, plus it's more weight and bulk. I do keep one in both vehicles as well as in the nightstand right next to my carry gun that I take off every night. None of my lights have lanyards, mainly because I never really thought about it until now.
Shooting with a handheld light is HARD. I really need to practice it more, at least with dry fire.
I have tried lasers and just don't like them. I think they're a good idea for a backup sight in scenarios where you're forced to shoot from an awkward position, or if it's too dark to see iron sights. As a primary sight I found them to be significantly slower when I tried them - I end up hunting for the dot rather than putting the front sight on the target. That's not to say they don't work for some people, just not for me.
For home defense, I think the best investment I've ever made was LASIK surgery. It's nice being able to wake up in the middle of the night and see what's going on, rather than hunting for glasses.
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I chose the last option, because it's the truth. With that said, I think I'm going to go the weapon mounted for both home and carry (I'm open to other options).
Point a bright enough light at the floor and it will illuminate the room... problem solved.
I see the WML as just a piece of the home defense pie. Lock you doors, set some sort of alarm. Lock your bedroom door so that it will take at least a few seconds to get through it. I'm not going to have a gun battle from my bed, so I need to give myself some time to react. I don't want to have to make snap decisions when it could be my fiancee that I'm shooting at.
Sure, that doesn't work for everyone. Some people have pets, some people have kids, etc. There are always little things that can be done, regardless of the circumstances.
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(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31WZea60liL._SX425_.jpg)
beautiful light, a bit big for EDC at work all day.
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My "nightstand" gun is a .40 Springfield XD service, w/ a stream light TLR-3 mounted on it. I like the idea of not having to search for a flashlight if something goes bump in the night. My carry weapon is a Springfield XDM 9 compact, w/ no light. WML's are to bulky IMO, for concealed carry. I will probably add some night sights to it at some point though.
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Like bkoenig I keep a flashlight in both vehicles and a light on my nightstand. I have been looking for a brighter light for the night stand and cheaper, decently made ones are making it to the market. In Autozone last night I saw they had a very bright 500 lumen HHL for $20 and a smaller pocket sized 250 lumen HHL with strobe mode for $19. There is a lot of practice ammo that can be bought by not spending $150+ on a WML. Regardless, I need to practice more.
You can really get an advantage by shining 500 lumens in someone's face. Like lasers, don't let your kids play with it, they won't know that it is too bright to look at.
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It's amazing how far flashlights have come. I still have my monster maglite in a closet, but all my other lights are smaller than just one of the D cell batteries for that thing, and brighter too.
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my conceal gun is my home gun right now.
I should keep a flash night near it but I don't.
I have a pretty nice bright light that I use to blood trails (streamlight 3C), that would dang near blind a guy if I pointed it at him, I might have to put that next to my gun at night.
Its by no means the end all be all or even close, but for my needs its very effective, and that beam in your eyes at 10 feet would be painful
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I will probably add some night sights to it at some point though.
There's a good point. For those who don't have any light source at all for their EDC, do you have night sights on your gun? (Even if you do carry a light, do you use night sights? How about your home defense weapon?)
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I've been planning a set of night sights, just haven't done it yet. They're really not that expensive. For those that do have them, do you like the illumination on both sights or just the front?
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I carry a AAA light in my pocket whenever I have my car keys. It's on an S-biner clip so it can be removed quickly and utilized independent of the keys. I have a light on my night stand and usually at least one in pretty much every other room of the house.
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I live out in the country, so I need a little more power . them damn cats people drop off! I have a AR-15 with a surefire forearm
http://www.surefire.com/illumination/weaponlights/rifle-carbine-smg/dedicatedforendweaponlights.html (http://www.surefire.com/illumination/weaponlights/rifle-carbine-smg/dedicatedforendweaponlights.html) this thing really puts out the light.
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The Olight M10 Maverick is ideal for me.
It's an expensive little bugger, but it fits great in a pocket and is plenty powerful (350 lumen). The controls are pretty good and it has a memory for the last mode you were in. It has a cool clip that fits nice on a pocket, but can also be clipped to your hat brim.
I use it for everything from checking for mail in the mailbox at night, to finding that tiny computer screw that fell under the desk. It's my daily carry and my "home defense" light.
http://goinggear.com/olight-m10-maverick-1-x-cr123-xm-l2-350-lumen-led-flashlight.html (http://goinggear.com/olight-m10-maverick-1-x-cr123-xm-l2-350-lumen-led-flashlight.html)
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I have flashlights stashed all over the place at home, work and in all vehicles. My home defense rifle has a WML and it will also double as handgun light on my G17. My carry G30 does not have a light rail.
ETA my WML also has a laser ( Insight M6X)
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I have night sights on one carry gun and a laser on the other. The laser is kind of a PITA since the temperature extremes tend to take a toll on the batteries. But it has decent sights without it.
Flashlight in vehicles and all over the house .
The night sights are excellent, they look like high visibility fiber optics day and night. And no stinking batteries!
Not a fan of WML, seems to me they would give your position away when used.
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HD gun, an AR, has a WML. Streamlight TLR1. No laser. Should add a laser. Handheld auxiliary light as well. "O" ring for handheld. Two lights in case of failure.
Carry gun has a CTC laser grip. No WML. Too bulky IMHO. Carry light w/"O" ring. Night sights.
EDC light is a two level light for work purposes. Everywhere I go carry is verboten. No ring. Just a pocket clip.
I always have a light with me. I'm old, I can't see and the stuff I need to see seems to live in dark corners.
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I have a WML on my HD weapon as well as a RDS. I think WML is essential for this purpose.
I do not on my carry, I may or may not have a flashlight on my person. If I do, I likely would not consider using it as a handheld. Right now I carry with contrast, I was using night sights and will be going back to them. Trigicon HD's (long story).
Handheld, if one plans to use a light in that fashion, seems silly to me.
I really don't like lasers.
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Looking at the poll, we see that NO ONE (thus far) uses a WML for carry purposes, though several use it on their home defense gun. (I'm one of those.)
Like many people, for CCW I find that having a WML on my carry gun just makes it too bulky for carry. I know some people who can get away with it, but I can't seem to. Maybe I just haven't found the right holster yet... (It is true that I only tried a couple of holsters for it. I do have a belt holster for one, but I can't carry concealed with it.)
The "don't use WML, you have to point your gun at anything you are looking at!" argument doesn't actually seem logical to me. It IS certainly true that whatever you are pointing the WML at is what you are pointing the gun at---however, you don't have to point the light at something to see it.
In my case, the WML makes perfect sense for home defense. We don't have kids, the layout of my house is such that my wife will always be behind me in terms of ever needing to check anything in the house starting from our bedroom, and I'm pretty sure I can tell the silhouette difference between a human attacker and my cat while under stress. In my case, for home defense, I'm perfectly good with pointing a gun at what I'm trying to look at, at least initially.
And there is nothing that says I can't use a hand-held initially, and carry a WML for aggressive social purposes when I check my house, too.
For actually shooting---given a choice for illumination, I'd much rather use a WML than a hand-held. I've done enough practice with both than I'm really clear on my relative speed and accuracy when comparing them---and shooting two handed using a WML in dim light or no light FAR outstrips shooting one-handed with a hand-held.
At the Rogers Shooting School, one of the days (after you've spent an entire day shooting already) you come back in the evening and do a dim light then no-light shoot. Rogers targets are both appearing/disappearing AND reactive steel---they show up, stay for brief amounts of time (often less than a second) and drop back down, and you only have that one chance to hit them.
I scored pretty well on the regular tests though the days---but shooting one-handed using a hand-held light, my scores were comparatively dismal. With the WML, I got MUCH better.
I happen to have a weapon mounted light/laser combination with me at the class. Prior to that, I had a standard WML on my gun, but recently had thought about the light/laser combo. Hadn't had a chance to use it at all, but had it with me. One of the instructors noticed it, and asked why I wasn't using the laser along with the light. No one else had, so I just hadn't bothered. He laughed and said USE IT! So, I turned the setting to "light AND laser"...
After doing so, I could see why. With normal WML, you still have difficulty seeing your sights with great clarity. (Same for using a hand-held---either you hold the light back so you can see your sights whereupon you get glare off the back of your pistol plus you light yourself up for the attacker, or you hold the light forward to keep it off you but now you can't see your gun so you have to attempt to silhouette the sights on the lit-up target. Neither is great. And you are still shooting one-handed.) However, with the light/laser combo, hitting those steel targets became cake. Seriously.
The light gave me a perfectly good picture of the targets, I could use the rough silhouette of my sights to get my gun on target, and the laser made it simple to precisely put hits exactly where I wanted to----such that I pretty much didn't miss after that. I completed one of their "random blast" evolutions (all the targets come up repeatedly for brief moments in time in a random order, and you just try to shoot down as many as you can, reloading when you think you either want to or have to in the middle when you hope a target doesn't show up, and they just KEEP COMING sometimes multiples at a time) without a single miss. In complete darkness. On a night where it was cold so there was a LOT of fog from every shot. (After four shots or so, you were standing in a cloud.)
I'm now a fan of WML/L combos. :) If I could comfortably fit a WML on my carry gun, it would be a combo, too. I may even get a WML version of some of the holsters I already use, just to see if I can make it work---because it REALLY made a difference in dim/low light. And hey, having that weight on the front end of the gun helps recoil, too, so daylight shooting would be easier also.
Don't know if I can make it work, but it is at least worth a try.
I note that trying the same thing with just the laser really sucked. Using a hand-held plus the laser (so, shooting one-handed) was better than without the laser, but still was NOT remotely comparable to the WML/L combo.
When I think about a police officer telling me that WML are not a good idea, knowing that many LEOs use them, it makes me shake my head a little. His point was a good one---what you point the WML at, you point the gun at----but that doesn't mean that no one should use WML. It means you need to be careful in how you use the WML.
I've got some more comments about using lasers for SD weapons, but I'll hold off on those for a bit. (Plus some things I want to ask about hand-held lights that you use.)
Comments about WML or WML/L combos? I note that these days, perfectly good WML/L are available for decent prices. (Especially for people like me, who use handguns for home defense for the most part. For me personally, there are too many people around my house for safe use of rifle, and I think shotguns are unwieldy for use other than for defense while barricaded in a safe room. That's myself and my home, though---your choices may vary based on your circumstances.)
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For actually shooting---given a choice for illumination, I'd much rather use a WML than a hand-held. I've done enough practice with both than I'm really clear on my relative speed and accuracy when comparing them---and shooting two handed using a WML in dim light or no light FAR outstrips shooting one-handed with a hand-held.
^ This is very true. Unfortunately, my carry gun is also my HD gun, and putting a WML on it is inconvenient for carry. My short-term plan is to setup an HD gun that has a WML and a suppressor (that I won't carry for obvious reasons). Then I'll have to practice with multiple handguns -- dangit. ;)
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^ This is very true. Unfortunately, my carry gun is also my HD gun, and putting a WML on it is inconvenient for carry. My short-term plan is to setup an HD gun that has a WML and a suppressor (that I won't carry for obvious reasons). Then I'll have to practice with multiple handguns -- dangit. ;)
I'm in the same boat - my HD gun is the same gun I carry all day, I just take the holster off my belt and put it in the nightstand when I go to bed.
I actually do own a weapon mounted light/laser combo, but I don't have any handguns with a rail that I could mount it to. Sounds like a good excuse to buy a new handgun....
The problem (and this is going to sound a little lazy) for me with a dedicated HD gun is the logistics of keeping it locked up in the safe during the day when I'm not at home, then taking it out every night when I go to bed. A gun locked in a safe is almost useless for defense unless you have a lot of warning, and if it comes to that I'm grabbing my SBR. It's just easier for me to use the same gun I carry every day.
EDIT: I have strongly considered buying one of those quick access/biometric mini-safes to secure a dedicated HD gun during the daytime.
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along the lines of a weapon mounted light for home defense. when I built my house, I put a switch in my bedroom, that turns on a light in the kitchen, this lets you back light who ever might be in the house,
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Thomas, when are you going to setup a low light no light course?
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Thomas, when are you going to setup a low light no light course?
I simulate low light conditions in his classes by keeping my eyes closed.
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I simulate low light conditions in his classes by keeping my eyes closed.
That.....actually explains several things.
:P
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That.....actually explains several things.
:P
Yes it does! :)
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So what do people think about lasers for SD guns? Not light/laser combos, but just lasers? Thoughts? Do you use one? Hate 'em?
Me personally......I'm solidly on the fence on this one. Or rather, in my opinion there are only a couple of situations in which I think they would be helpful at all, and in those situations, I don't necessarily see them being incredibly useful---but they might be helpful.
To my way of thinking, the only guns I'd ever put a laser on would be small pocket pistols, for situations in which I am shooting at serious close range one-handed. (I have a couple of j-frames, and a .32 Tomcat. I never carry them. But if I did, or ever thought I would, I would probably put a laser on them.)
Cases where you have to shoot one-handed, at close range, with a tiny pistol with poor ergonomics, snappy recoil, and a average-to-bad trigger---in those cases, having a visual POI reference would probably be helpful. If the attacker is that close, I'll be really pressed to keep my eyes on them, instead of on sights. And while many lasers tend to be hard to see in daylight at any distance, up close it would still be useful.
That's the same kind of reason I'm fine with using sights like the XS Big Dot on small pocket pistols---you need something you can pick up quickly and immediately under stress. And you aren't planning on taking 20 yard ocular window shots with them. (Maybe YOU are, but I wouldn't.) I wouldn't put a Big Dot on anything bigger, though, because it IS harder to be precise with them compared to other types of sights (ex: Warren Tacticals, Heinies, or Dawsons).
So why not lasers on full-size carry guns for similar close-range reasons? Well, holster fit is an issue for some of that. But for me, at least, the main reason is that full-size pistols are ergonomic enough, and I have enough practice with them, that my accuracy from retention 2 (in other words, with having the gun nowhere near my sight line) is pretty good out to 5-7 yards, even under some stress. And a laser IS just something else that can go bad, or be annoying to deal with.
With a tiny pocket pistol I don't practice with that much, comparatively speaking, with a poor trigger? Might be worth it.
Maybe.
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Real handy if you are the shield man on an entry team.
Lasers are very handy in certain situations, and with proper initial, and sustained ongoing training. The problem is, just like with the guns themselves, the VAST MAJORITY of folks buy em, install em, and never ever ever practice or train with them. Like many other things in the gun world, people think that equipment=proficiency. Equipment, be it high quality glass, a tricked out AR, or a laser on your carry gun, is just a tool, and a tool cannot be proficient. Only the user can, and because lasers are not a be-all/end-all, you would have to maintain proficiency on two different sight systems, effectively doubling the amount of training time to be required.
I have literally heard this sentence: "I have a laser on my gun so I don't need to practice as much." More than once.
Other thoughts on lasers:
-Useless in well lit areas
-Detriment in the dark (POO bullet magnet)
All just off the top of my head, I'll probably come back and add some stuff later when I've given it some thought.
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along the lines of a weapon mounted light for home defense. when I built my house, I put a switch in my bedroom, that turns on a light in the kitchen, this lets you back light who ever might be in the house,
Great idea...I added hardwired emergency lighting in my hallway, my stairway, basement room where we'd go for a tornado, & I plan on adding one above my gun safe....when I sell my house buyers are gonna wonder what I was thinking! I think that They look nice & blend in well...
My main reason was because I'm an electrician & I was bored one Saturday....& I wanted them for the fam in case of power outage....I could imagine a professional home invader taking the extra step to remove an electrical meter outside, it would take all of 30 seconds & leave a homeowner in the dark to defend his home...
I bought a laser for my carry gun, so far I like it but I've only had it a few weeks.... It adds almost no weight or size with the one I got, a crimson trace grip that slides onto my xd subcompact....& its still fits great in my supertuck & feels good in my hand...oh, I can turn it off easily as well so I don't see any disadvantages to it so far.
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For lights, I am limiting the discussion to practical carry options: (to avoid writing a book)
Here is something to consider:
In a typical urban environment, indoor or outdoor, that you find yourself in, and you would be most likely to have an encounter in, when/where is it so dark that you cannot see well enough with natural vision to ID a threat? For me, I honestly can't think of anywhere that I have ever been within Lincoln city limits that would fit that discussion, although I'm sure if you look hard enough, there are places.
(Now, if you're like me, and you carry in very rural areas, and you are also thinking about coons with distemper, mountain lions, etc, then the discussion changes, but for now, lets limit the discussion to human threats and urban areas)
The big myth in white light is blinding/distracting an attacker. While you can blind or distract a person that you caught off guard, briefly, an actual attacker, a real threat, is not likely to be delayed much, if at all. And consider this: If someone is flooding you with white light, how hard is it to shoot or charge THE ONLY THING YOU CAN SEE? I have a mountain of evidence that it is not difficult at all, even in high stress, including a surefire that is permanently stained from probably close to 40 direct hits from UTMs and Simunitions from several different training events.
White light is only used to ID a threat (including purposes of engaging). That is its only practical proven use against an actual threat.
This same point is one of the reasons to not use a weapon mounted light. A handheld can be dropped, held out away from you, etc to lessen the chances of you receiving a lethal dose of lead. You can also use the light to see, without pointing your weapon at everything and everybody.
The advantage of a weapon mounted light is quick accessibility, and the ability to maintain a two hand grip on the weapon. Now... what distance to CC encounters tend to happen? Is the latter really that valuable? And with the point at the beginning of the post, is the former really that valuable?
These are questions that only you can answer. I have no idea on the specifics of your situation/environment. Just meaning to give folks some things to think about in their equipment selection.
Get trained and keep practicing, on whatever light system you choose. Make spotting/painting and displacing an ingrained habit, that you do automatically.
Now, in the off chance I am carrying my LC9 (without a light), and I do find myself in needing white light to ID a threat, I do have a backup: My phone. A reasonably bright LED flashlight is built into most modern smartphones. I have practiced a few times with this, and while it takes me a couple seconds to get the phone out and the light on, it is a valid backup option, should I need to ID a threat in near total darkness. It is by no means ideal, especially with the backlighting on me from the screen, but better than nothing should I need to illuminate a situation.
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I carry a light 'cause I don't think it will hurt anything. Yeah, it will draw their attention to you, no one WANTS to turn on a light in a bad situation, but no one WANTS to biff an innocent either.
I hold no illusions that my 300 some odd lumen flamethrower will paralyze anyone's trigger finger. I just want to better my odds of ID'ing the threat in less than optimal lighting conditions. Even in dim light, it makes picking up the sights much faster.
I guess what I'm saying, that given the choice, I'd rather get hit than hit an innocent bystander.
Lasers. Again, I see no harm as long as they're not used as a crutch. The ability to use the sights is paramount. Looking for that dot takes too much time. Index needs to be developed. There's no substitute for that.
Where the laser shines, at least from I read, is shooting at moving targets in low light. And shooting from awkward positions. There may be a deterrent factor too, but I wouldn't/don't rely on that. If it works, great! If not, again, I'm not out anything.
So again, aside from the expense, I don't really see a downside to lasers as long as the shooter understands that they are no substitute for good body index* (which translates to the rapid acquisition of the sights) which is only acquired through hard work.
*And magnificent trigger control!!!
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Great idea...I added hardwired emergency lighting in my hallway, my stairway, basement room where we'd go for a tornado, & I plan on adding one above my gun safe....when I sell my house buyers are gonna wonder what I was thinking! I think that They look nice & blend in well...
My main reason was because I'm an electrician & I was bored one Saturday....& I wanted them for the fam in case of power outage....I could imagine a professional home invader taking the extra step to remove an electrical meter outside, it would take all of 30 seconds & leave a homeowner in the dark to defend his home...
I bought a laser for my carry gun, so far I like it but I've only had it a few weeks.... It adds almost no weight or size with the one I got, a crimson trace grip that slides onto my xd subcompact....& its still fits great in my supertuck & feels good in my hand...oh, I can turn it off easily as well so I don't see any disadvantages to it so far.
I wired Claymores up to a switch in my house. :)
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White light is only used to ID a threat (including purposes of engaging). That is its only practical proven use against an actual threat.
A good light also makes a terrific people whapper should it come to that. :) I can drive nails with my old Surefire M2 Centurion.
(http://frontiernet.net/~netim/M2Cent.jpg)
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The big myth in white light is blinding/distracting an attacker. While you can blind or distract a person that you caught off guard, briefly, an actual attacker, a real threat, is not likely to be delayed much, if at all. And consider this: If someone is flooding you with white light, how hard is it to shoot or charge THE ONLY THING YOU CAN SEE? I have a mountain of evidence that it is not difficult at all, even in high stress, including a surefire that is permanently stained from probably close to 40 direct hits from UTMs and Simunitions from several different training events.
Any elaborations on this? I tested out a bright 500 lumen LED going from dark to flashlight and I really couldn't look at it. Granted I wasn't in the mindset of a person breaking into a house or hopped up on God knows what, but my eyes physically hurt after that...
Thanks for your analytical approach too.