NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
General Categories => General Firearm Discussion => Topic started by: bkoenig on November 02, 2010, 08:37:46 PM
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So my wife asks me tonight whether I would be upset if she gets her CCW before I do. Two days ago my mom called me up and wanted help buying a pistol for herself, too. Are the women in my life awesome or what? ;D
Now we're discussing what gun for both of them. My wife is a little recoil sensitive but she can handle my M&P 9 just fine. I've been leaning towards getting an LCP for myself, but I'm wondering if the recoil of the .380 in a gun that size would be too much for her. I've also thought about the Walther PK380 for both of them since it's almost the size of a full size gun but shoots a smaller cartridge, so recoil would be less. My mom has virtually no gun experience, so she definitely needs something mild.
My wife definitely wants an autoloader. I'm leaning towards a revolver for my mom just for simplicity's sake. We're thinking of having my wife take the CCW class using my M&P since she's familiar with it and knows she can handle the recoil just fine. Any thoughts on either of these choices?
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I think the LCP is a good gun for smaller hands. My wife is able to get a better grip on it than I can, mostly because she has more hand on the gun. She has no problem with the recoil, has just gone out and shot 150 rounds at a time into the manure pile, then shoots any other gun avaliable at the time. Since it's not a range gun, you probably aren't going out to shoot it that much that it would become a wrist breaker anyway.
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Thanks Dave. How would you compare the recoil to a full size 9mm? I don't doubt that my wife could handle it, I'm just worried she'll be intimidated if she perceives it to be more snappy than my M&P.
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I don't think it's any worse than a Glock 26. It isn't as bad as my PF-9. I wouldn't hesitate to get one, they are really easy to carry. The problem I have with it is finding it and getting a good grip on it when going for a little speed. It is just too small to get a good feel for it when it's in my pocket. For $280.00, it is a great deal.
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My gal likes the Glock 17 with the crimson.trace now I can't keep enough 9mm ammo in the house.
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I have to use both hands to load enough for the wife's G 26 too. She can turn the barrel red when there are enough of us loading mags for her. What's really bad, when we run out of ammo, she leaves and I have to pick up all the brass. Then I have to clean her guns and put them away.
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I cannot recommend the use of a .380 as a primary conceal carry weapon.
Not enough bullet there and comes with frequent ftf. fte. problems.
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Randy, you need to try the newer .380's and ammo. At the range they are designed for they are fine. The wife's LCP has never failed to fire or eject and has 2,000 rounds through it. While some may recommend carrying nothing but a .45, I will carry whatever I am comfortable with, and there are a lot of people including myself that are confident a .380 is the minimum, but enough.
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I cannot recommend the use of a .380 as a primary conceal carry weapon.
Not enough bullet there and comes with frequent ftf. fte. problems.
You are absolutely right. 380 consistantly falls short in penetration tests with JHPs. It used to fill a niche in a small auto loader that was better than a .25 or .22. But now you can get 9mm pistols that are nearly the same size but with a cartridge that will perform much better.
I have seen reliability issues with the Walther .380s. Plus it being a double action first shot/single action weapon it will be difficult to master. Every class I have attended and given I see people have problems with accuracy with DA/SA guns. Once they are put under a little stress it is a very difficult gun to shoot accurately. When it comes to chosing a weapon for self defense simple is always best.
If she likes your M&P, try to find one in a compact that she could try. Id bet she will like it, plus it has a consistant trigger pull from shot to shot and she is already familiar with the operation and controls.
I still have a couple of openings in this weekends Intro to Self Defense Class I would like to fill. If your Wife and Mother are interested in attending together PM me and I will make you a deal.
- Shawn
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You might consider encouraging your wife and/or mother to rent some try-out handguns at the local range and shoot them before making their decision about buying any particular gun.
Most of us have bought some guns that we didn't try first.
Then, later, many of us have wished we had.
Renting-to-shoot is a good way to try out a prospective handgun for size, fit, recoil, trigger, caliber, etc., etc., etc. before making the permanent commitment to buy.
If your range has rentals.
sfg
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Check out the Kahr CW9 or CW40, or step up to the smaller PM9 or PM40. They aren't much bigger than a 380. They need about 500 rounds through them to break them in, but are a great gun.
Any gun is better than no gun, and I don't know anyone who wouldn't back down from even a 25.
But why does this gun have to be an autoloader? The best gun for new shooters for self defense is a snub nose 38. Always ready to go, no safety to mess with, always one in the chamber, no slide to pull back, same double action trigger pull unless the hammer is manually pulled back. If I had a woman, and she had very little experience with a gun, she would be carrying a 38 until she had mastered the weapon of HER choice.
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9mms can shoot with less recoil than most .380s.
Small .380s like the PPK are blowback operated, which transfers more recoil. Even delayed blowback guns like the LCP and P3AT don't have much mass to eat up recoil.
A small 9mm on the other hand has stiffer recoil springs and more slide mass.
Stay away from 147gr +p+ screamers and the ladies may find the 9mm to be easier to shoot.
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Any gun is better than no gun, and I don't know anyone who wouldn't back down from even a 25.
Im going to have to disagree with you there. This is simply something you say to yourself or someone else to help them feel better about their poor choice of gun. "Hmm, nice HiPoint. Hey its better than nothing...??"
Since there is no such thing as a crystal ball you really have no idea what level of evil you may be faced with. Are there citizens who have been sucessfull defending themselves with .25s, yes. Does simply threatening deadly force sometimes make the bad guy run away, sure. But there is no guarantee this will be the result.
Not long ago I transported a young man in the rescue squad who had been the victim of a shooting. This is a common occurrence in the part of Omaha I work in. According to him this was the fourth time this had happened to him. I can be fairly certain that he has been in more gunfights than most of us on this board, has been wounded multiple times and keeps going back for more. You think your going to intimidate this guy by pointing a gun at him? No way. You better be prepared to shoot him to the ground before he murders you. Your equipment and your skills need to be up to task. Anything less and you are living in denial.
- Shawn
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I'd second the Kahr CW9. I have a CW40 and it's probably a bit much in the recoil department for anyone who's recoil-sensitive.
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After talking it over with my wife we're going to go with a compact 9mm of some kind for her. The reason it "has" to be an automatic is my wife doesn't like revolvers. She thinks they're ugly. I know it's silly, but I figure it's better to buy a gun she likes and will practice with than something that may be a little more practical but will sit in a safe and never get used. Plus, all of my wife's shooting experience is with autos.
I'm most likely going to get a revolver for my mom, though. She really needs something thats absolutely simple. Probably a .38 of some kind that's heavy enough to soak up some recoil.
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I like 9mm autos. My Dad's G19 is a lot of fun to shoot. I carry a 1911 .45 myself. The recoil can be a bit high sometimes though, so understandable if she wants something with a lighter kick. Best thing I can suggest is rent a few 9mm pistols (Glock 19, S&W M&P, Springfield Armory XD, maybe a Beretta 92FS [the DA/SA might be something she doesn't like]) and see what she likes best. If you like your gun you're more comfortable with it and more likely to train with it as well as enjoy carrying it.
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I own a PK380, its a wonderful pistol. Large enough for my larger hands, light, very very accurate, very little recoil, 8+1, pretty much a smart little weapon.
Yes, there are those who dont like the 380 round. Oh well, opinions vary. I have near 1k rounds through it and after the very first magazine it has never had an FTfeed or FTfire. Not even on my reloads. Its a bit more expensive to shoot than some guns because of the higher cost of the rounds, but even with that its a good choice. And with todays exceptional personal defense ammo that is available there is no reason to refuse to consider this as a primary weapon for someone who has recoil issues.
Ron
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Its not my opinion but a fact that .380JHP consistantly falls short of what the FBI recommends as the minimum penetration depth in ballistic gelatin for a proper defensive round. That being 12in.
Most of the tests I have seen it tends to fall in the 7-9in range. I have seen some tests were it will make 12in but little more and there are many factors that will influence this.
You need to have a projectile that will penetrate deeply enough to strike vital organs reliably and .380 falls a little short.
Dont get me wrong there is a place for these ultra small pistols. I have a KelTec .32 that I carry when running or biking. But I am well aware of what it will and will not do and I train to use it in a very specific way.
- Shawn
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What does every one think of a snubbie in .32 H&R Mag for a somewhat less stiff alternative to a .38? I have to admit that my wifes S&W Bodyguard38 is very light and easy to carry but all she can handle in the recoil department. If she had turned it down as her carry gun I was thinking of the .32 Mag as a replacement.
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Shawn, I guess we disagree. I keep a magazine full of this http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=127 for personal protection. I believe this is what my wife can handle with her arthritis. She has practiced a bit (and accepts that practice is something she needs on a regular basis)and has a new nickname "Granny Oakley" hehe. Plenty of penetration here and her accuracy (from PRACTICE) is maximized. Others' views may vary. RJ
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Actually no disagreement here at all. The figures I mentioned are with JHP`s.
The Buffalo Bore .380s are a solid flat point and as such will perform very differently. Penetration doesnt seem to be a problem with this loading but overpenetration might.
Gotta love a product description like this -
"You can expect 20+ inches of straight-line penetration in flesh and bone with this load. If you are worried about over penetration with this load, DON'T! You chose to carry a tiny under-powered 380 auto pistol and the trade-off is that you are now going to have to stay alive with that pistol and over penetration will be the least of your worries if you end up needing this gun to save yourself or your family"
- Shawn
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Probably a .38 of some kind that's heavy enough to soak up some recoil.
Ruger SP101's in .357 (3 1/16" barrel)are heavy and downright mild with .38's in them.
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..... As for a 9mm auto, my brother recently bought a Ruger SR9c that he likes very much. I have not shot it yet, but he really seems to like it.
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The LCP has a nasty kick to it due to the narrow backstrap and light weight. The trigger is pretty poor too. It's not a fun or pleasant gun to shoot.
Good call on the small 9mm. I'd take my G26 over a LCP any day of the week in terms of shoot comfort, firepower, and reliability.
For mom, check out a S&W 640 (stainless J-frame Centennial) or Ruger SP-101. If she wants something a little bigger, S&W has a 686 3" listed on their site. It's an L-frame with a hammer.
For used stuff, there are a few K-frame snubbies that S&W made.
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I myself like the xd-9 to me compact enough to carry and large enough for control.
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From a Lady......just purchased a S&W .380 Body Guard......put 200 rounds through it with no issues......operated flawless! I say a lady should carry what she is comfortable with and this is a great pocket pistol!
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Funny, after all this my wife has taken a shine to my CZ-82. She even went to the range by herself for the first time today. I may not get that gun back, unless I break down and buy her the USP compact 9mm that she wants.
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I was gonna mention the Makarov and others like it, but I usually get laughed. ;) My mother shoots my Russian Mak very well, It conceals well, has a decocker, throw in some Silver Bear HP and I wouldn't be worried too much. I figure 8 rounds of 9x18 in a 8inch circle will do more 'good', than 12 rounds of .45 in well lets say in a general direction of the perp.
(oh yeah, They're pretty cheap too!)
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unless I break down and buy her the USP compact 9mm that she wants.
Well..... you DO know that, "If Mamma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy.", right?
You know the answer to this problem, don't ya?
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Funny how she chooses just about the most expensive carry pistol though. I need to get my CZ back though. That was supposed to be my carry gun. I love the thing, it's crazy how accurate it is. 12 rounds of 9mm Mak hollowpoints should do the trick. It's a little underpowered compared to 9x19 but it's better than .380, plus accurate and 100% reliable so far.
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What kind of penetration do 9x18 hollowpoints offer?
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Here is a link with some good info comparing 9x19 to 9x18
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121452
Heres one showing expansion and penetration results in gelatin. Looks like it falls a little short.
http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/9x18/gel9x18.htm
- Shawn
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Somewhere between a .380 and a 9mmx19. http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Comparisonof9x18mmMakarovetc.htm
I was also surprised to find that Silver Bear outperformed Hornady custom. as the russian ammo is what I carry.
If ya ever wanna try one, let me know, I have both a Russian Makarov and a Polish P-64 and plenty of hand loads and Bear ammo.
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What kind of penetration do 9x18 hollowpoints offer?
From some gelatin tests I have seen, using what is commonly available today, the 9x18 has between 9.5 and 11.5 inches of penetration. Those same tests have shown some varieties of .380 getting better than that and other varieties are quite similar.
-Rod
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I am still waiting to hear from someone attacked by a gelatin block..... :)
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Friend bkonieg,
An excellent resource for women new to concealed carry is Kathy Jackson's site: The Cornered Cat (http://corneredcat.com/). Ms. Jackson is staff at The Firing Line, managing editor of Concealed Carry Magazine and an instructor at the Firearms Academy of Seattle
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Thanks longhair,
I've read some of the stuff on the Cornered Cat regarding kids & guns and it's been very helpful as my daughter gets older and starts expressing an interest in them. I need to check out the rest of it.
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Friend bkonieg,
An excellent resource for women new to concealed carry is Kathy Jackson's site: The Cornered Cat (http://corneredcat.com/). Ms. Jackson is staff at The Firing Line, managing editor of Concealed Carry Magazine and an instructor at the Firearms Academy of Seattle
And you can preorder Kathy's new book here: http://www.whitefeatherpress.com/. Save 10% and get free shipping if you preorder - it could make a nice stocking stuffer. Mindy's getting one in her stocking; shhhh! ;)
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I am still waiting to hear from someone attacked by a gelatin block..... :)
Gelatin provides a uniform testing medium.
Even if we could test on humans, there are so many variations in body types that it would render comparisons moot.
Many people see the FBI recommended minimum of 12" to be excessive. However, when you consider that in a self-defense encounter, the attacker might be wearing several layers of clothing, obese, or have their arms in a defensive posture, 12" is very reasonable.
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Here is a link with some good info comparing 9x19 to 9x18
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121452
Heres one showing expansion and penetration results in gelatin. Looks like it falls a little short.
http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/9x18/gel9x18.htm
- Shawn
Thanks for the links, Shawn.
I was surprised to see a range of 4" (7.5" - 11.5") for the hollow points.
I'm also surprised at the penetration of the FMJ round. I wonder if that heavy bullet played a significant role.
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I know I'm quite late here, and the decision has probably been made already. For my two cent's worth, I 'd say it was hard to beat the G26 9mm if you consider stopping power, concealability, simplicity, and accuracy. I'm not sure how cost would compare with other similar options. The G26 is not my favorite gun, but for a woman in particular, it offers the small size for both grip and concealment, it is amazingly simple to shoot or clean, has acceptable recoil, is accurate enough at self-defense distances, can be fitted with laser sights, is relatively cheap to shoot, reliable, and still has a decent stopping power. I have one, and carry it when concealabilty is most important. Still, my Kimber 45 is probably my favorite even though it doesn't conceal quite as well. Then again, if you just want to scare someone off, the S&W 500 is hard to beat. There's not much chance of concealing it, unless you're wearing a tent!
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Well, I did end up getting a gun for both of them, although my wife doesn't know it yet :D
I got my mom an SP101. I know .357 magnum is too much for her, at least initially, so she's going to shoot standard velocity .38's in it (no +P's). We tried one out for her and she really liked the way it fit her hand. It also has Crimson Trace grips. I absolutely hate laser sights for myself - when I've tried them I think they're slower than irons, and they magnify the inherent shake from my hands. For her though I think they're a good idea, and she liked them when she tried them. The extra weight of the .357 gun helps soak up recoil compared to a regular .38. I would consider it to be a little too big and heavy for concealed carry, but she's not planning on actually carrying it- she mainly just wants a gun for around the house when my dad's not around. It's a heck of a lot nicer to shoot than my airweight Smith - that thing is absolutely brutal with +P ammo.
My wife backed away from the USP and decided she wanted a 9mm CZ-75 compact, in dual tone (black/silver). We had talked about buying one for her, but I ended up buying a S&W 642 for myself. There has been no end to the grief she's given me over that, but what she doesn't know is that I have a CZ sitting in the safe waiting for her. I was going to wait to buy one until her birthday in March, but they discontinued the compact dual tone model. Bud's Gun Shop was closing them out, and they sold out of them about the time I started to consider buying one. I got lucky though and found one one NIB on Gunbroker for only $20 more than Bud's after shipping. I was still going to wait until her birthday to give it to her, but I'm excited to shoot it since it's such a cool little gun. I think it's going to be her Valentine's day present now....
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I have the SW .357 airlite, but I wouldn't recommend it for anyone aside from the fact that it is excellent for concealment. The recoil is profound, to say the least (even with .38 specials), and the accuracy is severely compromised, in my opinion, by the hammerless action. Even at self-defense ranges, in a life-or-death situation, I would not want to rely on my ability to pull the trigger and hit my target reliably with it.
Although most people would shudder to think of a gun as a Valentine's Day present, I think it is a great idea. Maybe you'll get a little recoil action of your own out of it! :)
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any CZ75 = WIN!
;D
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Yeah, I definitely wouldn't even consider an airweight for my mom - that's why I got her the Ruger. Better grips and much more weight.
I'm kind of wanting a full size CZ 75 now for myself. The compact is just an awesome looking little gun. If it shoots anything like the CZ 82 it's definitely going to be a keeper.
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CZ75 is an awesome gun.
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Very good choices bk. The CZ wont let her down and kinda sexy too. ;) And the Ruger is simplicity and functionality.
Backs up my recommendation to a good friend's wife. Same senerio as yer Ma; Home alone at nights while he is at work. She has back problems and working the slide of a semi sends pains down her back. Handed her the Smith 28, work the hammer, pull trigger in SA and DA, all good. Told her "Thats what you need, but sorry, ya ain't gittin this one" >:D , so started showing them Rugers and even Judges. Figured even a 4 inch could purse carry if needed, but would mostly stay at home.
Keep us posted one how the gals like their respective SD tools.
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I'm one who believes that a permit holder should carry the biggest gun they can conceal and shoot comfortably.
If a woman is willing to work her wardrobe around a full size 1911, then that's the gun to carry IMHO. Or a Glock 17. Or an XDM40.
Full size guns, all things being equal, are more reliable in all situations and are easier to control. They also whack the target just a mite harder.
It's easier to rack the slide on a full size auto gun as there's more slide to grab onto and the recoil spring is lighter compared to their compact cousins.
Remember, a gun is supposed to be "comforting", not "comfortable."
And, it's a big gun when you put it in the holster but it's a big gun when you pull it out.
(Yeah, I'm a Clint Smith disciple.) :)
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I am still waiting to hear from someone attacked by a gelatin block..... :)
Clint!!! Good to see you here!! :)
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I am still waiting to hear from someone attacked by a gelatin block..... :)
I think your average Zombie is 99% gelatin, and 1% brains he has consumed..
Greg58
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Well, my wife had a REALLY rough weekend so I decided to give her the Valentine's day present early. Her reaction? "Just to be clear, all the CZ's in the house are MINE." I think that's going to be my new sig line :D
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I am still waiting to hear from someone attacked by a gelatin block..... :)
I think your average Zombie is 99% gelatin, and 1% brains he has consumed..
Greg58
I can think of several politicians I'd describe in exactly the same way. :)
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Pretty generous at 1%