NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
General Categories => General Firearm Discussion => Topic started by: bullit on February 02, 2012, 09:45:31 AM
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I think this bears strong consideration as an armed citizen....
© Armed Citizens’ Legal Defense Network, Inc.
February 2012
Armed Citizens’ Legal Defense Network • www.armedcitizensnetwork.org (http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org) • P O Box 400, Onalaska, WA 98570
5
PRESIDENT'S
MESSAGE
ZOMBIE ATTACK!
by Marty Hayes
That?s how I felt when walking by many of the target
manufacturers? booths at the SHOT Show. Talk about
stupid! The recent
zombie craze that
has hit the shooting
crowd is just plain ill
conceived, and if you
actually thought
about it for more than
two seconds, you?d
understand that by
buying into gun
products from the
zombie craze is
setting yourself up for
possible disaster.
Imagine being a little
old lady on a jury
who is deciding your
fate after you shot
and killed a homeless person who was kind of dressed
like one of those zombie targets after that homeless
person stepped upon your front porch and made
threatening gestures that lead you to believe he was
armed and intending to kill you. It is the job of the little
old ladies on the jury to decide if you acted as a
reasonable and prudent person would when you fired
several shots into the torso and head of the zombie
look-alike.
Imagine, that the prosecutors admit into evidence the
images of the deceased, doing a surprisingly good
imitation of a zombie, complete with rags covering parts
of the body and bleeding holes in the ragged clothing.
In addition to that evidence, imagine
the prosecutors admit into evidence
your stash of zombie targets, both shot
up and new that the police confiscated
after a lawful search of your home.
They got a search warrant after you
denied them entry. It was a lawful
search warrant because on the
warrant, the police listed as possible
items of evidence of a homicide,
including “guns, ammunition and other
evidence related to firearms use.” And,
because the local anti-gun judge
signed it, it was lawful on its face and
so the evidence makes it into court.
So, there you are, the only witness to the incident,
trying to convince the little old lady on the jury that you
are a reasonable person, and only did what a
reasonable person would have done when approached
and threatened by the raggedy-looking fellow you shot
multiple times. All well and good, until the prosecution
cross examines you and asks you about the used and
new zombie targets that you routinely use when
practicing to kill zombies. What are you going to say? It
was just all good-natured fun?
How do you answer the question, “How do you kill a
Zombie?”
“Ahh, shoot him multiple times in the chest and head?”
Of course it could be even worse for you if you
happened to use the Hornaday?s Zombie killer
ammunition, Z-Max. No, I am NOT kidding. And, please
understand I think the privately owned Hornady brand is
a great brand, and Steve Hornady is one of the true
good guys of the industry. But, this one is a gutter ball.
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One thing I've always wondered, is why all the guys who buy guns in case of zombies, always assume they they are not the zombies.
Multiple times been tto gun retailers around here and one of the sales guys uses "good zombie killer" as a reason to buy a gun.
It really weakens the pro gun stance IMO, and makes it seem illigitimate. I would recommend not buying from retailers and manufacturers who sell out to the zombie delusion.
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I admittedly never did understand the appeal and popularity of anything Zombie... but then I'm just an out of touch ol' fart according to some friends who think it's the coolest thing ever.
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Honestly, I thing it's a BIIIIG stretch to say that you'd get in trouble for shooting an assailant dressed in raggedy clothes because they looked like a "zombie" and you had some zombie targets at your house, etc. If that's the thing that gets you convicted then it was probably a VERY questionable shooting in the first place. If you're that worried about it then you had better not have any of these targets in your house either:
(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSz2rEGbe_us3m2SKD31ycqZW-sYPDmwjYth2DrUxZSEo9Ud8Jw) (http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSgSPlrqLMlNQYzgTGe674NhYpW4qi-0ogvr2H4yUGzgnIz4r1H) (http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRaq00rDLsLesmnqmRZyY6uD2MpTMpzuKJeJVtZueeZRVrI8ml-fg) (http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRUOgeSLpVVeZpKCoRmwF6sJ0HJhu19criAvURu4qnQnY4ae-tI)
It's all in good fun. I liked zombie movies before the current craze. I do agree selling a gun because it's a good zombie killer is just stupid.
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As an e-buddy of mine says, "If you're prepared for zombies, you're prepared for anything." ;D
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bkoening,
Knowing Marty as a retired LEO and now attorney and considering his credentials, I don't take lightly his comments (and inferring you are either). In short, he's been there, done than, and seen it. That being said, I sent him an email asking for his thoughts using targets similiar to the ones you posted because your comments were simliar to my thoughts. Last month in his discussion on competition shooting he had nothing to say about photo/scenario targets in that venue. Needless to say, it is an interesting topic and what lawyers can come up with. Will let you know what I hear back.
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I must admit, while I have a significant amount of respect for Mr. Hayes and his experience, I think he is going extremely far out on a limb to say what he did---and that to come to his conclusion, he had to make a number of leaps of judgement that are not logical.
Seriously, now. Most people who practice actual self-defense tactics (of which Mr. Hayes is one) occasionally use photo-realistic targets. Matter of fact, there has been a solid push recently for LEOs to use them also. So---as people in this thread have said--which will look worse, a human target, or an obvious horror-movie caricature of a zombie? As since the photo-realistic target isn't going to work for the prosecution, the zombie target argument is certainly going to fall flat.
Zombie stages, practice, and silliness is _fun_. As such, people have more fun practicing, competing, and shooting in general--so they will shoot more, and get better, comparitively. If anyone thinks that the general shooter actually expects to defend against zombies, then there isn't much to say...
I thought it was hilarious when Hornady came out with their Z-match ammo. And as has been argued elsewhere, preparation for a zombie apocalypse is ALSO generally good preparation for any large-scale disaster. (At least, that is what the CDC thinks, which is why they started talking about ZA preparations.) Considering Katrina here, and Japan recently, perhaps disaster preparation is a good idea.
But hey, I'm one of those USPSA guys who shoots at _silhouette_ targets on a monthly basis! I must obviously be in line for some serious trouble from the prosecution if I'm ever in court.
Or maybe----that really isn't going to be a big deal.
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I believe starting with about my generation (i'm in my mid 30's) -- there's an inherent fun to the zombie thing. movies, tv, video games.... lots of zombie shooting. i doubt anyone other than arm chair commandos or nut cases put any weight behind 'zombie gun'.
as far as catastrophic oh-**** situations... well... since we can't own any full auto's without a stamp and all of that... nor any other 'interesting' weaponry.... whatever. any large magazine shotty or semiauto rifle fits the 'zombie' bill just fine from an ordinary citizen stand point heh.
as a marketing ploy, it's tongue in cheek.... and goes with a lot of other pointless / senseless marketing crap that's out there. i honestly find it slightly refreshing to see some slightly amusing gun marketing. hell, i really should pick up some of hornady's z-max bullets just as a collector's thing for the box art :)
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Don't get me wrong, I think the zombie thing is silly and absurd. That's probably why I find it funny, but I can see why some people don't think silliness has any place in the firearms world. I don't take myself (or life in general) too seriously, so it doesn't bother me.
I personally think the biggest danger from the zombie thing is that it may turn off people who think it's dumb. I do think it's getting to the point where it's over done. And that's coming from a guy with a "Zombie Killer" dust cover on his SBR.
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As an e-buddy of mine says, "If you're prepared for zombies, you're prepared for anything." ;D
Zombies are nothing when compared to Master Vampires
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Zombies are nothing when compared to Master Vampires
OK, Mr. Pitt.
;D
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Zombies are nothing when compared to Master Vampires
OK, Mr. Pitt.
;D
However, Earl always said that Werewolf Alphas were especially nasty...
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I probably need to lighten up a bit, but zombie killings were recently made even more popular by a video game called "black ops" in where there is a game where you kill zombies in masse.
So I feel that gun retailers, and now ammo manufacturers, are leveraging video games to sell things. I have two problems with this:
1) Kids who dont need guns nor ammo will buy them for the "cool factor" of the delusional possibility of killing zombines
2) It feeds the anti gun media machine and gives them ammo to discredit the gun community.
I guarantee the "armchair commandos" do in fact believe in zombies and irresponsibly own and operate guns all because of this.
Its not good for any of us and while it is fun for people who are responsible, we all know its always a few who ruin for the rest. And Zombie ammo is going to attract those few.
Personally I find it fun to shoot zombie targes and would love a box of zombie ammo. But because of the risk of associating self defense firearms with video games from the realworld firearms perspective, I chose not to do it.
Shooting shadows of people I feel is ok as it does not give "eye candy" akin to video games.
Next thing you know they'll be selling a "quake ar-15" or "Modern Warfare ak-47" with game logos on them.
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Most of the antigun crowd that would see this as an issue, don't have creative enough mindset to dream this up. Why even write the article? Just feeds the problem.
I think the whole “Zombie” thing is a great marketing strategy. Why not pull a profit from a fad in the market.
If purchasing Zombie or/and using Zombie products makes you unstable. You were not stable in the first place. And most likely you can’t purchase the products legally anyway.
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Why write the article? For marketing, of course. I think the author writes some really good stuff, but this one is a bit out there.
It's as logical as a prosecutor asking why a defendant was a member of something called the Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network? Why would you join something like that unless you were planning on killing someone?
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I guarantee the "armchair commandos" do in fact believe in zombies and irresponsibly own and operate guns all because of this.
WOW. I can't help but ask can you define "armchair commandos"?
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I have played the game....enjoyed the game....Heck i have played Grand Theft Auto also. I have never had the resist the urge to steal a car....kill a streetwalker......blow up a boat....steal a tank....wage war with a mafia boss... So i think its safe to say i wont go on a zombie killing rampage.. Now i would really like to hear the definition of armchair commando. I also own several guns because of a "cool factor." I just hope i am not deemed unfit to own firearms because of playing a video game.
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I guess these might be too much for some people to stand huh?
http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/bleeding-zombie-targets-from-zombie-industries/ (http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/bleeding-zombie-targets-from-zombie-industries/)
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"It's all in good fun. I liked zombie movies before the current craze. I do agree selling a gun because it's a good zombie killer is just stupid. "
[/quote]
^ This about sums it up for me. I also enjoyed 'Jurassic Park' but don't feel the need to prep for a T-Rex attack (.50bmg is too much $$ anyway)
While it's clear (to me) the Zombie thing overdone, it's not in my top 216 of things to worry about related to guns or 2A rights. Reminds me of that Seinfeld bit about the Detergent ad that bragged how well it removed blood stains- 'if blood stains are a recurrent problem, maybe you've got bigger issues then laundry'.
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Video games protray guns and violence in a romanticized and unrealistic fashion. Whether not not this causes people to go do things is beyong the scope of what I am saying.
What I am saying is for gun retailers to attach themselves to video games, now that crosses a line. Zombies, zombie ammo, whats next? A Playstation 3 Ar-15?
I just dont want to see firearms retailers "toy up" guns to further feed into the ways video games portray weapons.
Armchair commando: Someone who plays modern warefare 3 all day, and thinks he/she knows all about guns and can do those things in the video game for real life, and probably has never touched a gun thank God. Start selling Modern Warefare 3 ar-15s and we might have a problem.
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re: armchair commando
someone who discusses firearms, military weaponry, or military tactics while having no personal experience of their own. typically has done research and possibly has a variety of numbers and figures... but again, no experience.... coupled with an ego or similar douchebaggery.
many are borne out of the gaming generation, thinking that their 'realistic' video games closely mimic reality.
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There are plenty of varieties of these types of people regarding different topics (cars and sports come to mind)... you've undoubtedly met similar people at bars concerning a different topic, etc.
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They also wear ballcaps or t-shirts with a Trident or "Delta Force" printed on them.
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I dont think the risk of owning zombie ammo is any greater than the risk of owning military style weapons, full capacity mags, or stockpiling ammo. It all seems like it would be used against you in court.
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I have enjoyed seeing the dialogue on this topic. Marty replied to my inquiry about "human/humanoid" targets...and I quote "As long as you are participating in training which is simliar to police training, you should be good to go. For what it is worth, at my school, Firearms Academy of Seattle, we use them a lot."
The take home lesson of this topic I feel is that we civilians (or even LEOs) need to keep in mind the potential for any area of our lives to be brought into play if involved in a self-defense shooting. In short, everything will likely but put under the microscope whether in our OPINION it may or may not be a "big deal". Always, always, always keep in mind who the triers of the facts will be....a jury of your "peers" (of which you may get to testify) or a Grand Jury (in which typically testimony not allowed on your behalf). CYA..."Can you articulate" is a term Ayoob presents. Be able to give a logical reason for what you do, did, or would do.
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I have enjoyed seeing the dialogue on this topic. Marty replied to my inquiry about "human/humanoid" targets...and I quote "As long as you are participating in training which is simliar to police training, you should be good to go. For what it is worth, at my school, Firearms Academy of Seattle, we use them a lot."
I'm thinking that between:
http://www.letargets.com/estylez_item.aspx?item=RLZ-9 (http://www.letargets.com/estylez_item.aspx?item=RLZ-9)
and
http://www.letargets.com/estylez_item.aspx?item=USV-8 (http://www.letargets.com/estylez_item.aspx?item=USV-8)
...any particular prosecutor is going to have a hard time convincing a jury that the zombie target is good evidence that you were just itching to shoot a homeless guy, particularly if the OTHER target is a standard practice target.
Which it is.
The take home lesson of this topic I feel is that we civilians (or even LEOs) need to keep in mind the potential for any area of our lives to be brought into play if involved in a self-defense shooting. In short, everything will likely but put under the microscope whether in our OPINION it may or may not be a "big deal". Always, always, always keep in mind who the triers of the facts will be....a jury of your "peers" (of which you may get to testify) or a Grand Jury (in which typically testimony not allowed on your behalf). CYA..."Can you articulate" is a term Ayoob presents. Be able to give a logical reason for what you do, did, or would do.
Always a good thing to bear in mind.
That being said, while it might be a good idea to assume that the jury is composed of morons and the prosecuting attorney is a completely convincing genius, nonetheless I think that the idea that zombie targets in your house spells issues in court is still ridiculous. :)
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jt...
Respect your opinion, but having dealt with enough Med Mal cases as an expert witness over the years, I put nothing past attorneys at least "trying". Anyway, I thought the topic interesting because we live in a illogical world and we CHP holders need to understand and be prepared for even the potentially "insane" argument against us. It is a court of law (which sadly is dynamic these days i.e. Prop 8 reversal in Kalifornia yesterday), not a court of justice.
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jt...
Respect your opinion, but having dealt with enough Med Mal cases as an expert witness over the years, I put nothing past attorneys at least "trying". Anyway, I thought the topic interesting because we live in a illogical world and we CHP holders need to understand and be prepared for even the potentially "insane" argument against us. It is a court of law (which sadly is dynamic these days i.e. Prop 8 reversal in Kalifornia yesterday), not a court of justice.
I don't doubt that an attorney will completely deconstruct your life and leave no stone unturned. As jt said, if the prosecutor is brilliant and your attorney has not done their job during jury selection, then who knows what they might try to convince your "peers" of. Regardless, I feel fairly confident that my defense, though taxing and costly, would be successful.
On an unrelated note (you brought it up, I didn't), the repeal of proposition 8 is not a good example of a lack of justice if that is what you are inferring...IMHO. This is a legal battle that will be lost by the conservatives and it serves no purpose other than to help the Democrats by driving people away from the Republican, or more conservative candidates.
Fly
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Fly....semantics....
The "people" spoke when they passed Prop 8. The 9th CIRCUS (yes, I mean CIRCUS) and their 3 radicals who heard the "legal battle/challenge/case" what have you, then disregarded/pooped on/overturned/repealed the WILL and VOTE of the majority. I'd say that justice has not been served, but a law "created". IMHO.....
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Fly....semantics....
The "people" spoke when they passed Prop 8. The 9th CIRCUS (yes, I mean CIRCUS) and their 3 radicals who heard the "legal battle/challenge/case" what have you, then disregarded/pooped on/overturned/repealed the WILL and VOTE of the majority. I'd say that justice has not been served, but a law "created". IMHO.....
Careful bullit. I'm not sure you want to live in a country where the WILL and VOTE of majority become unchallengeable law. Even though the WILL and VOTE of the "people" on this issue favor your position, I'd caution you to using majority rule to defend your position. That sounds frighteningly like a democracy to me. We're not a democracy, we're a constitutional republic that protects individual rights. If the WILL and VOTE of the majority was to make private firearms ownership illegal, would you object to a circuit court overturning that proposition - even though it was the WILL of the "people"? Since you have the moral high ground on your issue, I'd suggest arguing your position from individual rights and morality rather than setting a dangerous precedent of arguing from a position advocating mob rule. Just my $0.02.
<we now return you to your regularly scheduled zombie thread> (http://click88.home.comcast.net/~click88/ftp/zombie.gif)
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Careful bullit. I'm not sure you want to live in a country where the WILL and VOTE of majority become unchallengeable law. Even though the WILL and VOTE of the "people" on this issue favor your position, I'd caution you to using majority rule to defend your position. That sounds frighteningly like a democracy to me. We're not a democracy, we're a constitutional republic that protects individual rights. If the WILL and VOTE of the majority was to make private firearms ownership illegal, would you object to a circuit court overturning that proposition - even though it was the WILL of the "people"? Since you have the moral high ground on your issue, I'd suggest arguing your position from individual rights and morality rather than setting a dangerous precedent of arguing from a position advocating mob rule. Just my $0.02.
<we now return you to your regularly scheduled zombie thread> (http://click88.home.comcast.net/~click88/ftp/zombie.gif)
Thank you Wesley D. Very eloquently stated. It does not matter what the popular vote is if the people's opinion is unconstitutional.
Fly
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Wesley D.. I understand your comments and agree. Maybe a bad example, but this has been a fun thread for me. That being said, you do realize you are NOW wrong about our nation being a Republic. Proof postive (again) this morning. Fox News reported this morning and that the leader of the regime has bypassed Congress (again) by waiving "No Child Left Behind" for states. :)
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re: red, blue, no child left behind, republic
Ron Paul! Gary Johnson!
Ignore the pretenders!
FREEEEDOM!%!#! :D
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That being said, you do realize you are NOW wrong about our nation being a Republic.
Touché bullit. I suppose, I should have said: "We weren't founded as a democracy, we were founded as a constitutional republic that protects individual rights." ;)