NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
General Categories => General Firearm Discussion => Topic started by: Gary on April 15, 2013, 12:59:16 AM
-
Student attending a CHP class at Big Shots Sunday at 11:30 shot himself in the leg as he was holstering his weapon.
Story was on 10/11 android app. Student is 52 and not seruously hurt. Reportedly a 22.
an inadvertent discharge of a weapon is bad enough, but the bullet striking a person is pretty sad news. good thing no one was seriously injured or killed. too bad the student shot himself, but it is fortunate he did not shoot a bystander or his instructor.
sad a new business in the gun trade has to have this as publicity.
I wish the 52 year old a speedy recovery, and I hope all our forum friends were not involved.
I remember my class. I was shooting a 10mm. if I had of shot myself in the leg with a 10mm, that could be a big injury.
I always put a safety device in my Glock called a Safe T Blok. impossible to have an inadvertent discharge with that installed.
no doubt the State Patrol will get involved in this incident, will be interesting to see how this all plays out.
in two weeks, I take my certification to teach this class. this is a good wake up call for all of us, handling guns to be very careful and always focused.
today's news could have been a real tragedy and so fortunate it turned out as well as it did.
-
trying to do more research on this story, I just learned another shooting happened not long ago at a Omaha area shooting range back in February. that shooting ended in the death of the gun range user.
something as simple and straight forward as a gun, does seem to be misused by some gun owners.
very sad. I had not heard about the Omaha death till just now.
there is a nation wide trend starting for gun range users to purchase and use bullet proof vests and other safety equipment.
-
I think there's been 2 or 3 suicides and at least one ND injury at The Bullet Hole in Omaha since it opened.
-
n two weeks, I take my certification to teach this class.
Gary as a NE CHP instructor myself please clarify what your are"taking" to get your certification???
-
The holstering part of shooting seems to really take people by surprise. Folks attend the CHP classes and haven't ever worn their holsters before.
That guy who is going to shoot himself will always be out there.
-
From the time I bought my BB rifle at around eleven and through the purchase and use of several rifles, including two M1 Garands, and reloading my shells, I never had an accidental discharge, even though I usually kept my finger on the trigger while hunting or target practicing. I shot thousands of rounds. Probably 10s of thousands. I was lucky, to say the least, but I didn't realize it back then because I didn't have to take formal training and never did. I don't even know if it was offered in the area where I lived.
During the shooting portion of the CHP class that I took last November the first time my instructor saw me holding the Nano with my finger on the trigger he gave me a sharp rebuke. The second time I did it all h*** broke loose. He was all over me, in my face, said a LOT of sharp words and a few "If I ever see you doing that again I'll <insert clammity here>". Everyone else on the range was looking at me, some were snickering. Probably because I was so red in the face it burned. It was the best thing he could ever had done. I can't even pick up my Nano now without hearing his voice and remembering the look on his face and I watch my trigger finger like a Robin looking at a worm.
-
I never had an accidental discharge,
As an aside there is no such thing as an accidental discharge....only NEGLIGENT discharge. Finger off the trigger until on target AND you've made the conscious decision to fire....
-
I was going to ask the same question. I didn't think there was anything you had to "take" to get certified as an instructor. We turned our application and materials in in January and are still waiting to hear from the NSP.
-
I hope the guy is OK.
My Dad got me a BB gun when I was 2, a pellet gun when I was 6 and a 20 gauge pump when I was 8. Though I really don't shoot that much anymore, I shot a lifetime worth of ammo before I finished high school. I've always practiced gun safety and got on those around me who weren't.
One time, I went shooting with a co-worker. This was back in the early 80's. He had his two young kids with him and we were standing along a tree-line behind my house and was getting ready to head in to shoot for awhile. At that time, all of my guns were strictly hunting style firearms. He had a pistol grip 12 gauge with a sling and handed it to me to fire off a couple of rounds. I checked the safety and then slung it over my shoulder.
I about died when the gun went off behind me. There was a large hole less than 6 inches from my foot. I quickly glanced at both his kids to make sure they were OK, then looked at him. I took the gun off my shoulder, pointed it away and down and carefully unloaded it. I handed it to him and told him to destroy it.
It was the only shot fired that day and I never, ever forgot it. Everything I did that day was safe, yet there was still an unintended discharge...and there were kids present. To this day, any chambered firearm in my possession is not only pointed in a safe direction, but I can see both the muzzle and the trigger. If there is a round in the chamber, I won't sling the gun.
It literally scared me in many ways and became a life lesson. I'm not saying all should practice this personal safety "quirk" (kind of defeats the purpose of a CHP), but I can honestly say that I will never, ever have a chambered firearm around that I cannot see both the trigger and muzzle.
-
I have to disagree with no accidental discharges. I've personally seen it happen.
-
May or may not be related but felt the need to say it:
If you holster requires 2 hands to re-holster, it is a bad holster. Get a new one.
Lots of people show up to classes or competitions with a floppy holster that they have to hold open with one hand and then put the gun in, requiring them to basically sweep their hand on upon re-holstering.
Further, "speed re-holstering" is ridiculous and serves no actual purpose. Get the gun in slowly and properly. If it binds or feels different than normal, take the gun out and diagnose the problem.
Also I would argue there is such a thing as an accidental discharge. It isn't negligent, merely accidental. It just isn't what happened here. An example of an accidental discharge: You're working on your draws and getting the trigger pulled to just before it will fire and you accidentally fire a round because you pulled just a little too far. You weren't negligent, assuming you are using a good backstop and took all necessary precautions, you just fired accidentally.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But back on topic: This is unfortunate and I hope the guy recovers and the business doesn't suffer for it.
-
I think I will go to Big Shots today, just to show support....well, and since I am there, I will probably shoot a little too...But mainly, I am going to show support.....yeah...pretty much, oh and I might use the archery range...but primarily I am going to show support..really. Seriously, though. If your local, go there and support them today, if you can. Even if you don't shoot, just drop by and let them know the shooting community is supporting them. I think they could really use the encouragement.
Of course, you might as well shoot while your there....
-
An example of an accidental discharge: You're working on your draws and getting the trigger pulled to just before it will fire and you accidentally fire a round because you pulled just a little too far.
Maybe you have a problem with "Premature Discharge"..... :P
-
I see what you did there...
-
Maybe you have a problem with "Premature Discharge"..... :P
Better than premature ejection... :o :P
read it again people.
66bigblock
p.s. - Thats ejection of the casing prior to proper firing.
-
Okay people before Dan washes our mouth's out with soap and sends us to our rooms, lets focus........I for one will now rise above the fray and wait for the report on the original post. No report in the "Urinal Star" today. All in good fun...better than the depression I've felt here on TAX day.....ugghhh......
-
I'm glad the fella wasn't seriously hurt ... and am hoping that there won't be any media b.s. fall out from the event.
"Speed holstering" is down right silly. You drew your weapon for a reason. You shouldn't be in a rush to put it back.... let alone the adrenaline that will undoubtedly be going on at the time, it's better to make sure things are 'good' around you and then slowly / safely reholster.
"Accidental discharge" pedantics is all about frame of mind... and a darn tooting good one. Your finger better not be on the trigger unless you're on target, etc. Modern weaponry also doesn't discharge without a trigger pull. If you happen to get a trigger pull due to a bad holster or fumbling it... well.. can't help you there.... you either deserve a good thrashing (or in the case of a bad holster, throw the infernal thing away this instant).
I have had a *single* "accidental" discharge in my life so far, and will hopefully be the last. Was one-handed cocking the hammer on my s&w 357mag with finger in the trigger guard (thus, the tilt of the gun in combination with tilt of hand was enough to let that feather light cocked revolver trigger go)... it went off pointed down rage at the target but not 'aimed'. I was sooooo very embarrassed heh.
It was the best thing he could ever had done. I can't even pick up my Nano now without hearing his voice and remembering the look on his face and I watch my trigger finger like a Robin looking at a worm.
Indeed! Bravo to your instructor and to you for taking his berating to heart :).
My old man did some good screaming and beatings on me as a kid the first time I had my finger on the trigger when holding the weapon (a 22lr rifle) casually for the second time.
-
I went in to Big Shots and dropped some cash and a couple hours out of my day. They are such good people. I talked with everyone there and since they are giving "no comment" to the media, I will keep what they said to myself. Apparently the shooter/shootee is very embarrassed, as he should be, but I hope he gets back up on the horse right away. One thing is for sure, he will keep his finger off the trigger when holstering.
-
One of the More Dangerous Acts in Concealed Carry Range Qualification.........
Involves holstering a loaded firearm.
So---we holster semi-automatics only with an empty chamber in my CHP classes. We start with chambers empty, insert the magazines in the mag wells, come to the ready position, and then holster without racking the slides to chamber rounds. In this way we holster all semi-automatics on an empty chamber. On the "Draw and Fire" command, students first draw and only then rack the slide to chamber a round into battery so that they can fire their qualification series.
Nothing in the NAC Title 272, Chapter 21 administrative rules requires holstering a semi-automatic with a round in the chamber, so we don't do it. Which adds enormously to safety on the firing line during range qualification.
Can't do the same on revolvers. Have to holster them w/loaded rounds in the cylinder. But....just taking the semi-autos out of the equation is a huge safety factor.
FYI,
sfg
-
One of the More Dangerous Acts in Concealed Carry Range Qualification.........
Involves holstering a loaded firearm.
So---we holster semi-automatics only with an empty chamber in my CHP classes. We start with chambers empty, insert the magazines in the mag wells, come to the ready position, and then holster without racking the slides to chamber rounds. In this way we holster all semi-automatics on an empty chamber. On the "Draw and Fire" command, students first draw and only then rack the slide to chamber a round into battery so that they can fire their qualification series.
Nothing in the NAC Title 272, Chapter 21 administrative rules requires holstering a semi-automatic with a round in the chamber, so we don't do it. Which adds enormously to safety on the firing line during range qualification.
Can't do the same on revolvers. Have to holster them w/loaded rounds in the cylinder. But....just taking the semi-autos out of the equation is a huge safety factor.
FYI,
sfg
Very smart, sir, I congratulate you for doing this, in this way. I think a more advanced class could teach locked and loaded, along with other various methods of keeping one in the pipe.
My class had us place one in the pipe, safety on (where there were external safeties). While that is the fastest of all possible ways to kep a gun ready, in your holster, it does add to the risk in a large group, at a gun class.
-
Gary as a NE CHP instructor myself please clarify what your are"taking" to get your certification???
PM sent
-
One of the More Dangerous Acts in Concealed Carry Range Qualification.........
Involves holstering a loaded firearm.
So---we holster semi-automatics only with an empty chamber in my CHP classes. We start with chambers empty, insert the magazines in the mag wells, come to the ready position, and then holster without racking the slides to chamber rounds. In this way we holster all semi-automatics on an empty chamber. On the "Draw and Fire" command, students first draw and only then rack the slide to chamber a round into battery so that they can fire their qualification series.
Nothing in the NAC Title 272, Chapter 21 administrative rules requires holstering a semi-automatic with a round in the chamber, so we don't do it. Which adds enormously to safety on the firing line during range qualification.
Can't do the same on revolvers. Have to holster them w/loaded rounds in the cylinder. But....just taking the semi-autos out of the equation is a huge safety factor.
FYI,
sfg
Don't get me wrong, I understand the safety aspect, but I do have question the value of the training if it doesn't include the do's and don't's of carrying a weapon with a chambered round. Admittedly, I'm new to this business but EVERYTHING I've read and most logic points to the fact that if you are going to carry a weapon it should be ready to go upon being drawn from the holster.
Wouldn't it be better to add that to the overall training program rather than turn people loose on the streets who are "qualified"?
-
but EVERYTHING I've read and most logic points to the fact that if you are going to carry a weapon it should be ready to go upon being drawn from the holster.
Some folks are uncomfortable with a round in the chamber.
Some folks are uncomfortable with a cocked & locked 1911 on their hip.
Carry the weapon in a way that you feel safe and comfortable.
Just do realize you'll have to rack the slide when drawing (or whatever is appropriate for your carry weapon).
I personally carry my Sig P229 with a round in the chamber (and has no external mechanical safeties)... but couldn't fathom carrying a C&L'd 1911 :)
-
if you are going to carry a weapon it should be ready to go upon being drawn from the holster.
Carrying a round in the chamber will make the weapon ready to fire when it is drawn. Racking a round before you can fire can give away your position and the fact that you are armed if a perp isn't looking right at you. Racking destroys any advantage not being the the perps view might bring.
-
I think it has been summed up pretty well already: likely a combination of poor trigger discipline and a crappy holster. In my class I saw lots of soft nylon holsters being used. I'm of the opinion that holsters should be made of leather or kydex and be specifically designed for a particular pistol, not a "one size fits all". A couple of my leather IWB holsters even have a steel reinforced mouth that make for easy one handed reholstering.
-
I didn't see it posted skimming through the responses but did he pass? I mean come on getting shot with a .22 (probably down the side of the leg) he could have just wrapped it up with newspaper and a little duct tape and made it through the rest of the class. >:D
-
I didn't see it posted skimming through the responses but did he pass? I mean come on getting shot with a .22 (probably down the side of the leg) he could have just wrapped it up with newspaper and a little duct tape and made it through the rest of the class. >:D
I wonder if the people around him passed? If you are on a buss, and it crashes for one buss passenger, it crashes for everyone.
Class of 25 or so, one would think someone from that class would be a posting member here.
Anyone here at that class Sunday?
Tuff situation for everyone, but worse for the one with the lead weight in his leg.
-
Racking destroys any advantage not being the the perps view might bring.
If you're drawing you're weapon, you are more than likely going to discharge it. For me, drawing it means firing it.... old school mentality of the only reason to point a gun at someone etc. Having two parents that served in the military prolly has something to do with that mentality heh. If the weapon's off your hip, it's less than a couple seconds of being discharged (granted, if the BG immediately stops/drops weapon... yay for them, they don't get holes). It is the *VERY* last resort (drawing it).
By no means am I attempting to sound belittling or anything... but ya aint playing Metal Gear Solid or a Tom Clancy game (and yes, I realize with your age group, you probably have no clue what I'm referring to heh). If your weapon is drawn, it'd be hard to imagine it being in your hands isn't inconspicuous, or the whole drawing it movement, etc. I will agree that the extra noise is a technical disadvantage but that, by no means, should be the basis for the proponent of carrying one in the chamber.
Much more valid stances would be:
a) no possibility of FTF problems when racking the slide during the short window that first shot is so critical
b) less steps involved during an adrenaline rush (ie: a possibility to skip practice/training learned movements of draw & simultaneous rack)
c) some slides are downright difficult to rack. the recoil spring on my p229 is beefy :P
... etc ...
-
Don't get me wrong, I understand the safety aspect, but I do have question the value of the training if it doesn't include the do's and don't's of carrying a weapon with a chambered round. Admittedly, I'm new to this business but EVERYTHING I've read and most logic points to the fact that if you are going to carry a weapon it should be ready to go upon being drawn from the holster.
Wouldn't it be better to add that to the overall training program rather than turn people loose on the streets who are "qualified"?
I took SFG's CHP course and back the method used for a couple of reasons. Many people in these classes are taking their "first" range instruction whether or not they feel they have a "working knowledge" of firearms. We had one guy who assumed he knew what he was doing repeatedly ignore range commands even after several corrections. (I was kinda hoping SFG would give the guy a little "Come to Jesus" talk, Marine Corps style >:D ) He repeatedly covered the poor guy in lane 8 enough times that he kept flinching and stepping back. Wife & I standing behind waiting for our turn on the line gravitated over to wait behind lanes 1&2. I wanted her concentrating on the range instructions and what SHE was doing, not worrying over what the person to the left would do. Advanced training course? Go ahead and holster a live round. First time course? You're not really gaining anything extra other than the risk of an accidental/negligient discharge. No offense but some of you "old guys" hear suggestions not instructions. ;) We all passed, no one limped away, I'd say SFG's method is sound.
-
PM sent
Could I get in on the PM too... I'm an instructor and didn't have to "take" anything....
-
Could I get in on the PM too... I'm an instructor and didn't have to "take" anything....
Same here. I would like to hear about this too.
-
Could I get in on the PM too... I'm an instructor and didn't have to "take" anything....
PM sent
-
Same here. I would like to hear about this too.
PM sent.
-
Some folks are uncomfortable with a round in the chamber.
Some folks are uncomfortable with a cocked & locked 1911 on their hip.
Carry the weapon in a way that you feel safe and comfortable.
Just do realize you'll have to rack the slide when drawing (or whatever is appropriate for your carry weapon).
I personally carry my Sig P229 with a round in the chamber (and has no external mechanical safeties)... but couldn't fathom carrying a C&L'd 1911 :)
I am uncomfortable with a Glock with one in the pipe, so always keep a Glock doubled down, a Safe T Blok and in a holster that completely covers the trigger. Yes, one is enough, but double safe, safer.
-
I didn't see it posted skimming through the responses but did he pass? I mean come on getting shot with a .22 (probably down the side of the leg) he could have just wrapped it up with newspaper and a little duct tape and made it through the rest of the class. >:D
I fail to see humor in light of this person's misfortune. It's also obvious that more people need to have respect for any weapon of any caliber....they're all deadly.
-
The owner of BS had knee replacement done on Thursday, so on Sunday morning he was no where near work I am sure. Imagine the horror of answering the phone next to your bed, and having someone from work, inform you, someone has been shot in your CHP class, and you are laid up in bed .
Very sorry day for all involved. So,so glad no one was killed, or more seriously hurt.
Is it possible, all range time on these basic CHP classes should be limited to small caliber weapons?
Not my opinion, but it might make for good banter.
I qualified on my personal gun of 20 years, that I shoot pretty well, a Glock 10mm. But for new shooters, is it reasonable to expect them to fire .357, 9mm, and the like, at a range where they are saturated with instructions, and more than likely, a little overwhelmed?
-
From my perspective, the caliber of the handgun is less at issue than the experience of the people signing up for CHP classes. I will agree, though, that firing a 22 would be less intimidating for new shooters... It's just I'd rather see folks get some quality beginning instruction (and it doesn't have to be an official class) before coming to my class. I would say at least 30-40% of those I've seen this year have never drawn from a holster before. Throw in a cheap nylon holster and that can add another element of danger.
-
Safety First
-
is it reasonable to expect them to fire .357, 9mm, and the like, at a range where they are saturated with instructions, and more than likely, a little overwhelmed?
IMO, it all depends on the instructor and how he/she runs the class. My instructor had only 5 people at a time on the range, and before he let anyone shoot he personally checked their weapon and holster. AND, he wasn't the only one watching. There was a second individual, also a qualified instructor, who assisted, and he was also watching me and the other four very closely. He also demonstrated how to prevent most semi-auto pistols from racking a second round if you happen to be close enough to the perp to grab the gun. My Nano came with two six shot magazines. When he saw me using a Lula to load one he came over and loaded the clips himself in seconds without using any device. Just plugged them in like he was putting Mentos back in the roll. I still cannot put the last two or three rounds into the magazine without great effort. Having two instructors there was a definite advantage.
-
Gary -
Can you send me the PM you are sending requiring the CHP instructor requirements?
I'll note that we teach various levels of students from brand new "holy cow I've never touched a gun before" to "I've been shooting tin cans in my grandpa's field since I was a child" and we've never had any problems. We discuss safety, demonstrate safety, and practice safety. We also stress proper equipment. If your holster is unsafe, you will be unsafe holstering your gun. If your finger is off the trigger, the gun will not fire (given that there is nothing wrong with your holster). The nylon floppy holsters just aren't safe and should not be used at all for the CCW classes. Similarly, there is no reason to holster quickly, so safety should always be carefully recognized and practiced.
I know that most people on here know this, but it is true -- a gun will not fire unless the trigger has been pulled/squeezed. Simple. If your students learn this immediately, there shouldn't be any AD/ND issues during the class.
-
The nylon floppy holsters just aren't safe and should not be used at all for the CCW classes.
"Nylon is great for pantyhose, not holsters." -Clint Smith
-
Some Strange CHP Range Qualification Adventures:
>Students who come up with a Great Big Grin and say, "I've got this Brand New Pistol.........I've never shot it before!!!!!!"
>Students who bring .45ACPs to shoot and .45GAP ammo to shoot in them.
>Students who bring Ruger Single Sixes [check them out] to class and don't know how they work. And hold the entire line up while they try to work them.
>Students who load the cartridges backwards in the magazines [Yes--it can be and has been done.....more than once.]
>Students who put the muzzle of their handguns into their stomach areas to provide additional leverage while clearing jams.
>Students who bring Smash-bang Loudenboomers [.454Casull, .44RemMag, etc.] to class and want to qualify with them.
>Pistol Wavers.....Muzzle here; muzzle there. Muzzle, Muzzle Everywhere.
>Serious Tremblers and Shakers. Cool as a cucumber off the firing line. Gun in hand?? The Shaking Commences. A strange thing to see.
>Bringers of Incredibly Antique Handguns that will never be used for Concealed Carry and which righteously belong in the NRA museum.
>Saturday Night Specials. Jam Factories. [Last one I had, it was shoot a round and jam. Clear. Shoot. Jam. About 50 rounds worth.]
>Handguns that just won the Dirtiest Gun in the Armory Award.
I am not dissing my students. Never. I luv 'em. And enjoy working with them. If asked, they will merrily confirm this statement.
It is simply that these items above and many, many other strange instances are encountered at the Range Qualification stage in CHP classes. Surely other CHP instructors could add to this list. We could write a book.
CHP Range Qualification is only the smallest of steps in preparing CHP holders for safe handgun carry. It's a gateway to serious safety study and practice. I wish that it was a certainty that folks would do so after their CHP arrives in the mail.
Holstering a handgun is one of the more dangerous events which takes place during CHP qualification.
Which is why my classes holster handguns with empty chambers. Has nothing to do with real life on-the-street concealed carry practice. Has to do with here-and-now safety at a specific shooting event.
sfg
-
I took SFG's CHP course and back the method used for a couple of reasons. Many people in these classes are taking their "first" range instruction whether or not they feel they have a "working knowledge" of firearms. We had one guy who assumed he knew what he was doing repeatedly ignore range commands even after several corrections. (I was kinda hoping SFG would give the guy a little "Come to Jesus" talk, Marine Corps style >:D ) He repeatedly covered the poor guy in lane 8 enough times that he kept flinching and stepping back. Wife & I standing behind waiting for our turn on the line gravitated over to wait behind lanes 1&2. I wanted her concentrating on the range instructions and what SHE was doing, not worrying over what the person to the left would do. Advanced training course? Go ahead and holster a live round. First time course? You're not really gaining anything extra other than the risk of an accidental/negligient discharge. No offense but some of you "old guys" hear suggestions not instructions. ;) We all passed, no one limped away, I'd say SFG's method is sound.
All the more reason, in my opinion, to beef up the safety requirements and/or instruction as part of the class. It seeems counter-intuitive to me to certify that people have completed a CCW course that includes a required section of firearms safety without ensuring that they are safe with a loaded, holstered weapon. Isn't that what the class is for? Granted, there are a variety of skill levels that show up, but I would hope there is a minimum standard that folks have when they walk out the door.
I guess it just doesn't make sense to me to refrain from teaching something on the range because it's unsafe, bu then assume they are trained once they leave the class.
The only firearms training I ever received prior to my recent CCW class was in the military. Typically they were one day events where we had morning class followed by qualification on the range. I assumed I was pretty ignorant about firearms when I started shooting on my own in Jan, but after a few range sessions, I'm amazed at the level of ignorance out there. I'm almost afraid to go to the Bullet Hole when it's crowded!
-
I'm almost afraid to go to the Bullet Hole when it's crowded!
While I've seen some folks do some silly things in regard to shooting.... I've never seen anyone at the BH actually be dangerous. Maybe I've been lucky, I dunno... but never felt the compulsion to ask someone to stop doing whatever they're doing for safety reasons.
The CCW class being a mix of introduction to 'this is a gun' as well as some thoughts on CCW specific stuff is indeed a weird mix to try to cover. ChrisZ was my CCW instructor and he did quite well IMHO. Disclaimer: I hand out ChrisZ's and SFG's CCW business cards to anyone that shows an interest :).
-
While I've seen some folks do some silly things in regard to shooting.... I've never seen anyone at the BH actually be dangerous. Maybe I've been lucky, I dunno... but never felt the compulsion to ask someone to stop doing whatever they're doing for safety reasons.
The CCW class being a mix of introduction to 'this is a gun' as well as some thoughts on CCW specific stuff is indeed a weird mix to try to cover. ChrisZ was my CCW instructor and he did quite well IMHO. Disclaimer: I hand out ChrisZ's and SFG's CCW business cards to anyone that shows an interest :).
I recently took Rod Moeller's CCW class. I can't say enough good about it. The range portion was very safe, with two instructors for 3 people on the line. Everything was slow and deliberate with a keen emphasis on safety. While I'm not an experienced shooter, I'm comfortable conducting myself on a range. I was glad to see the very up close and personal instruction given to the other two participants in my shooting group. That instruction included muzzle control, finger control, and slow careful holstering.
-
taking my class this saturday
and reading through this thread is just making me nervous ???
-
Concerning quiet draw and stuff, apparently Sean disagrees with my assertion of it not being as important:
http://nebraskafirearms.org/forum/index.php/topic,8860.0/topicseen.html (http://nebraskafirearms.org/forum/index.php/topic,8860.0/topicseen.html)
Stealth draw; We all should be practicing this. I see it in a lot of civilian SD shooting videos. The guys that carry without a round chambered, how will you pull this off?
So... there ya go.
-
Concerning quiet draw and stuff, apparently Sean disagrees with my assertion of it not being as important:
http://nebraskafirearms.org/forum/index.php/topic,8860.0/topicseen.html (http://nebraskafirearms.org/forum/index.php/topic,8860.0/topicseen.html)
So... there ya go.
:D Just read through this, I wasnt picking on you bro. Just see the stealth draw a lot in videos of shootings and its just one more presentation of the gun that we should practice. No more or less important.
Glad the subject of this thread is okay. Sometimes mistakes hurt, glad it wasnt fatal.
When people register for our CCW class we explain in detail that it isnt a "learn how to shoot" class. Its a demonstrate your proficiency class. If you show up and cant safely handle and operate your firearm you will fail and have to retake the course. Its not my job to help you pass. I will do everything I can within reason to assist but in the end its up to the student to meet the minimum standard.
And if anyone on this board attended a certain class, by a certain instructor, that didnt meet the minimum requirements be aware that he has had numerous complaints filed with the State Patrol. One of my OFD coworkers recently attended his class. He stated they were basically given the answers to the written test, and the lecture consisted of nothing more than him BSing from his recliner for about 3 hrs. The shooting qual had them firing 10-20 rounds into a blank sheet of plywood. Most of the students didnt even draw from a holster. He related this to the State Patrol knowing full well that his permit may be revoked because he failed to meet the minimum requirements. But he was so disgusted with the instructor that he felt he had to.
- Shawn
-
Any student I teach the CHP program to, will know everything they are expected to know, or will not pass the class.
If our public schools taught to that standard our kids wouldn't be graduating as near illiterates who can't do math or count money.
-
Just read through this, I wasnt picking on you bro. Just see the stealth draw a lot in videos of shootings and its just one more presentation of the gun that we should practice. No more or less important.
Hehehehe, didn't mean to imply you were. Was just pointing out the opinion of someone who knows better than I ;)
-
If our public schools taught to that standard our kids wouldn't be graduating as near illiterates who can't do math or count money.
If quality parents would demand this, instead of letting the deadbeats run the show, schools would do this.
-
If quality parents would demand this
Unfortunately, being an ex-teacher who has had many parent-teacher conferences, the only parents who came were those whose children were doing very well. You couldn't get the parents of kids not doing well to come to a conference if you used a gun. Even calling and asking for a time to meet them at home failed, they always had excuses as to why they couldn't make it.
-
Unfortunately, being an ex-teacher who has had many parent-teacher conferences, the only parents who came were those whose children were doing very well. You couldn't get the parents of kids not doing well to come to a conference if you used a gun. Even calling and asking for a time to meet them at home failed, they always had excuses as to why they couldn't make it.
I'm a teacher and it certainly hasn't changed much
-
I fail to see humor in light of this person's misfortune. It's also obvious that more people need to have respect for any weapon of any caliber....they're all deadly.
Sorry you feel that way. First rule of firearm safety keep your finger off the trigger until you intend on firing the weapon.
-
I used to be a Tandem skydiving instructor, and I can certainly relate to what SFG is talking about. A mindset I found useful was to consider "How is this student going to try to kill me today?". Meaning your awareness of the students abilities, physical condition, body language and state of mind are paramount when attempting to live to see another day.
Fly
-
I was going to ask the same question. I didn't think there was anything you had to "take" to get certified as an instructor. We turned our application and materials in in January and are still waiting to hear from the NSP.
He may be talking about the NRA Basic Pistol Instructor certification, which is necessary to teach the CCW course. It isn't all that is needed, but you do have to have that certification first, before you apply to the NSP with your curriculum to teach.
I'll note that the NRA Basic Pistol Course does not in ANY way give you the knowledge you need to teach the Nebraska CCW course. (Well, a little about guns---but the CCW students should know that already. And a little about teaching---but someone teaching a firearms class anywhere higher than a "basic" level should know a LOT more about teaching than that---and the CCW course is NOT a basic pistol class.)
I'm not sure why this needs to be treated as some secret requiring PMs, really. Unless someone has a training class to add assistant instructors to their current firearms school for CCW, there isn't any such thing as a certification class specifically for teaching the CCW class in Nebraska.
-
Finger off the trigger is a goal towards firearms safety. Problem is, as humans, we are wired to touch things we look at, to give a tactile explanation to the things we see with our eyes. Ask someone about an old elbow injury, and the person will say that has not bothered him in years, while the person rubs his elbow. In nature, we shun the touch of things we learn first hand, hurt us, like fire, or the sharp end of a knife. No young boy learns to be careful of a sharp knife, by verbal instruction only. After a cut or two, the pain experience builds in the necessity to respect a sharp knife. The trick in firearms training, is to build in an adverse action, consequence of touching the trigger, when no use of the firearm is indicated, without any first hand experience of that consequence. The poor guy at BS over the weekend, felt the real consequence of touching the trigger, rather than applying theory only. He is not the first, nor will he be the last. I would hope no other student or instructor in Nebraska will ever have this happen to them.
-
Problem is, as humans, we are wired to touch things we look at, to give a tactile explanation to the things we see with our eyes.
Response:
It's a boyhood fantasy... I must have seen this ship hundreds of times in the Smithsonian but I was never able to touch it.
Sir, does tactile contact alter your perception of the Phoenix?
Oh, yes! For humans, touch can connect you to an object in a very personal way, make it seem more real.
I am detecting imperfections in the titanium casing... temperature variations in the fuel manifold... it is no more "real" to me now than it was a moment ago.
Would you three like to be alone?
-
Finger off the trigger is a goal towards firearms safety.
A 9th grade remedial math class I taught was designed to give them experience in balancing a check book, computing monthly payments on an amortized loan (house or car), add up a grocery bill and create a percentage breakdown in house hold expenses, etc....
Part of that was creating "married" couples who had to share the work load of their assignments. One in particular was carrying around a hard boiled egg that had my signature and a number on it (the number was visible in UV light -- sneaky, no?). They were responsible for it 24 hrs a day for a week. If they brought it back cracked then both received a D for that part of the class. If they brought it back in pieces or lost it they both received an "F". The whole purpose was to mimic in some small way the difficulties of caring for a baby.
That got me thinking. What if a plastic model of a Glock were wired up with attitude detectors connected to the trigger? IF the finger was not in the index position while the gun was not level (not being aimed) it would send a mild shock to the handle. A simple Mercury light switch, a capacitance pad, on-off switch , fine wire, a step up transformer hidden in the grip and a battery is all that is needed.
-
That got me thinking. What if a plastic model of a Glock were wired up with attitude detectors connected to the trigger? IF the finger was not in the index position while the gun was not level (not being aimed) it would send a mild shock to the handle. A simple Mercury light switch, a capacitance pad, on-off switch , fine wire, a step up transformer hidden in the grip and a battery is all that is needed.
A gun does not need to be level to be "aimed" or "sighted" (there is a difference).
Try doing some combative drills with your handgun, you end up firing in some very awkward positions. Gun aimed up, down and sideways. We have even worked firing the gun upsidedown :o Try getting your safe-t block out doing that.
For anyone interested that technique came up by necessity a few times during ground fighting drills. Also during carjacking drills when the BG came in through the passenger door and we had to fight it out in the passenger compartment. Being right handed there was no way to get to the gun because the right hand was occupied defending and striking, it was quite easy to simply grab the gun with the left hand, drawing it upside down.
We worked this live fire, sometimes the gun would cycle properly, but what usually happened was the slide would strike the wrist giving you one shot. You would then have to TRB to get it back into action.
The first time I saw this was several years ago. I met a combat Vet who had lost part of his hand in an IED exposion . He had re learned to shoot his gun, holding it upside down, using his pinkey to work the trigger. He shot all day long like that. Actually out shooting many of the other students.
- Shawn
-
Wings off, flames pouring out of the engine, smoke leaving a trail in the sky, my idea falls to its death ... :-[
-
I see it as negligence myself and I am happy that nobody was killed. After witnessing an ND which resulted in the injury of a teammate on active duty I am stubborn on the safety rules. Though recently taking a CCW class I was apalled by the lack of user familiarity with other students and their equipment. That practice drilling component takes time and isn't all rainbows but weaponplay is serious business with serious responsibilities. If you're that jerk on the range yelling about safety then bless you. If you're not you should be.