NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
General Categories => General Firearm Discussion => Topic started by: bkoenig on June 20, 2013, 10:19:15 PM
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I bought a couple of AR500 steel targets about a month ago and tonight I finished up building stands for them. The steel I used is a little on the light side so I'm not sure how well they'll hold up, but since I had it laying around the price was right.
The vertical part hinges at the bottom so they can be folded flat for transport and storage. The vertical and horizontal crossbars have a piece of angle iron welded to them to (hopefully) help deflect errant shots.
I have a really crappy little 110 volt welder that's on it's last legs and barely feeds wire, so my welds look terrible. I guess I have an excuse to buy a new welder and redo them....
I'll probably redo them at some point with vertical supports on either side of the target instead of in the center, but only had enough steel to do it this way and I wanted to get them finished up before the weekend. We'll see, maybe I won't shoot them up too bad.
(http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee412/alemonkey/21C86392-6957-4305-8D17-A62BF9756454-8669-0000058790606CC8_zpsa47f814f.jpg)
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Looks good Brian!
Where are you going to use these? I mainly ask that due to having the angle iron on top to deflect errant shots, you can deflect some down, but some have effectively been launched into low orbit.
That's what I would be worried about anyway.
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Looks good Brian!
Where are you going to use these? I mainly ask that due to having the angle iron on top to deflect errant shots, you can deflect some down, but some have effectively been launched into low orbit.
That's what I would be worried about anyway.
Good point, maybe I'll remove the angle iron from the horizontal bar.
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Or maybe weld a flat plate to it? Just the bottom half so it deflects only down...
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That's an even better idea. I'll have to pick some up tomorrow.
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I'm just full of usually useless but occasionally handy information.
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The only real problem i see is the single stand arm holding that whole top assembly and the weight of the pendelum swinging underneath it. Thats alot of weight and alot of force, no matter how good the welds it will try and rotate the cross arm on the bottom at the pivot point and it will also be forcing back on the welds on the bottom of the single arm.
My suggestion is to tripod it with two more legs coming down to the arms about 3/4's of the way toward the front.
It will make it alot stronger and disperse the load and the vibration out along the lower arms instead of trying to pivot it at the back or put that stress on the welds.
It will also give it alot longer life.
Hope thats clear enough, If you need help designing somthing to fold it flat let me know id be glad to help.
Matt
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Ugly Welds are no biggie, 'cause the whole thang is just gonna get shot up anyhow. Then you can take it down to Kansas City and sell it to the elites for Big Bucks as Prairie Art.
With typical Shooter's Luck, first shot will be through one of the chains. Kinda like putting one right down the middle of your brannew chronograph. And I'm not talking about the middle of the skyscreens.
All this proves that we're not in All This just for the shooting.......it's all the Other Messing Around to get ready for shooting that stretches out the Fun.
sfg
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I can't tell from the pic, are those plates 3/8"? I've been looking at some of these but my company occasionally scraps some AR400 that I could do a self built version.
Thanks for the inspiration!
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With typical Shooter's Luck, first shot will be through one of the chains. Kinda like putting one right down the middle of your brannew chronograph. And I'm not talking about the middle of the skyscreens.
sfg
I can attest to that bit of truism. Brother built some steel to plink on. 3 plates, each hung by one chain link, slid over a hook. Sure enough, in short time, we has 2 of the 3 links shot in two. (and not on purpose)
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I can't tell from the pic, are those plates 3/8"? I've been looking at some of these but my company occasionally scraps some AR400 that I could do a self built version.
Thanks for the inspiration!
Yes, they're 3/8" but they're AR500. I'm not sure how AR400 would hold up. Probably fine for pistol rounds.
I'm planning on redoing them with a beefier vertical support eventually - this was kind of a quick, last minute slap together with what I had laying around the garage. And I do plan on shooting the chains - I've done that enough times with other targets that I'm prepared. I have some wire ready to patch them back together.
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Portable target stands:
Step 1) Weld two brackets designed to accept rebar.
Close up of the brackets
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ_C8oyccRcaouEah3z2gJKCf_RrZOVGOtCZZxouZr2ipwcdBYl9NlqWw)
(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTzfbnefKajT7rMvF1Mp6u19thmJMMAlgk_iK_T0c8xPJ8vqa-Scg)
Step 2) Get or cut five pieces of rebar.
If you want to save on weight, you can use tubing, but it is more expensive.
DO NOT USE WOOD OR PVC!!! They will not last long as the splatter will cut them.
Step 3) Slide the rebar into your brackets, as shown below. Hang your target(s) how you like.
Assembled:
(http://i1089.photobucket.com/albums/i351/vabeltfed/rebar-stand.jpg)
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8334/8083942480_fcddf1b06a_b.jpg)
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/100_08694.jpg)
Dissassembled: you have 5 peices of rebar, two brackets, and a steel target with chains attached.
You can change out lengths or rebar for different desired heights. It balances well, is easy to make, easy to replace parts, fairly easy to disassemble and reasssemble, small enough for a car trunk when dis-assembled, light enough to hump into a spot where you cant drive.
There is a significant advantage to shooting hanging steel, as you not only know *that* you hit it, you can tell *where* you hit it, based on how the target reacts.
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Those look really nice.
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Do they get to swinging too much? Have you thought about bolting two plates inline and have the second plate act as a pendulum dampening weight?
With the 3/8" AR400 I was thinking about having .223 62gr FM as my max rifle round, will have to keep the 7.62 off of it...
Great modular bracket design with that rebar!
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well, the stands worked well today. We hit them a couple of times but managed to stay away from the chains. I think once I've shot these up I'll build some like Wallace posted.
Shooting steel is so much more fun than paper.
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well, the stands worked well today. We hit them a couple of times but managed to stay away from the chains. I think once I've shot these up I'll build some like Wallace posted.
Shooting steel is so much more fun than paper.
I agree. Steel is a ton of fun. Where do you shoot? Lincoln Ikes doesn't allow steel targets. :(
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Kozball, Wallace, RobertH and I went to ENGC this afternoon. Got some dope out to 600 yards!
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Thanks for the invite...guess ill just have to console myself on my Ducati:)
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We will have to do it again. If John can make it, since he is an ENGC member, we could have 6 guests between the 2 of us.
Going to need more steel targets. :P
Koz
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Got some dope out to 600 yards!
Well, He shunta been standing there anyhow.
sfg
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it was fun. i think i hit the 600 once. maybe if it was a less windy day, so our spotting scopes would stop moving.
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John giving pointers, Kozball practicing from an improvised position, and Robert spotting while I was goofing around.
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I'm new to NFOA but have been a lifelong hunter and firearms enthusiast. It's things like this thread that make me very excited about getting more involved and make me think that I've been missing out on this whole experience for far too long. I've always been sceptical of the larger forums at the national, or even global level and am glad that I found a good local one.
Thanks to all that make this a reality! And for Chris Z for pointing me in the right direction!
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Yeah, there are a lot of good people here. We generally keep the bickering to a minimum.....it probably helps that an awful lot of us know each other in real life. You don't want to be a jerk to someone if you're going to see him at the next USPSA match :)
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Yeah, there are a lot of good people here. We generally keep the bickering to a minimum.....it probably helps that an awful lot of us know each other in real life. You don't want to be a jerk to someone if you're going to see him at the next USPSA match :)
JERK!
....I wish I could have made it out there shooting this past Saturday. [sigh]
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With typical Shooter's Luck, first shot will be through one of the chains. Kinda like putting one right down the middle of your brannew chronograph. And I'm not talking about the middle of the skyscreens.
Shoot parts of the chronograph???!!!
Just can't imagine that that kinda thing would ever happen.
[Except maybe the skyscreens or maybe the skyscreen legs now and then...........]
Heck, what I do is just put the skyscreen legs on the vise anvil and beat them back into shape with a................ Never mind.
Shoot parts of the chronograph???!!!
Redickless!!!!
How could it ever happen??
sfg
Wait a min here......so you were being sarcastic and not cutting a promo on me for mentioning I had read of people shooting their chronographs earlier this year or contradicting yourself now? :laugh: :P
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JERK!
....I wish I could have made it out there shooting this past Saturday. [sigh]
We need to do it again so we can get more people ready for Wallace's match this fall. It's definitely something you need to prepare for and do some homework, but I can't tell you how satisfying it is once you have your dope and you can hit steel repeatedly. I have a long ways to go before I'm ready but it will be fun getting there.
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oh invite me again. always fun and i needed those tips to undo years of bad habits. and i'll drive.
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Pick a date and we will check the match schedule for the 600. Later in the day probably works the best as the range clears in the PM. I am always ready to go TRY to learn some things.
And I need to take a peek thru John's scope. :P And try to get some basic load data.
Any time, let me know.
Koz
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I need some distance time...but first i need to load some rounds. (which I can do now thanks to a local connection, scored nearly 1k of berger and sierrar matchking 168's)
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Chris C:
If we could get enough people to admit it, we could have some patches made up, something on the order of:
"One Less Chronograph to Mess With"
"Didn't Give Good String Data Anyhow"
"I Shot My Chrony in Self Defense.....Honest"
"Shooters, 1.........Chronographs, 0"
and form a fairly exclusive club. Give out patches. Meet. Have club rules. Dues. By-laws....
Not the same as Harley-bonding, but actually, how many folks have really shot their chrony??
Something to think about.
sfg
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By the way, I had another picture of Koz shooting but I decided not to post it because it was a direct shot of his butt. I was trying to get him shooting with John and my rifles in the frame but there was collateral damage......
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There is enough scary stuff on the NET. :o
Thanks for not sharing. Nobody needs to see that.
Koz
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Been finding myself getting an above average number of emails, pms, etc asking for advice for getting into precision rifles. Below is my most often issued piece of advice (gear wise).
glass... Glass... GLASS!!!
The most common thing I see with new shooters is skimped glass. Optics will make or break your rifle and your performance. Good glass needs to have high light transmission, good clarity, parallax adjustment (forget about focus, you won't need it), it needs to track correctly (box test), needs to have matching reticle and dials.
I will take a factory rifle with good glass over a GAP or AI with crap glass any day. Most factory bolt guns are sub MOA capable out of the box, which is really all one needs.
Rule of thumb: Your glass should cost twice as much as your stick.
Glass recommendations:
Schmidt and Bender
USO
Zeiss
Nightforce has long been considered the "best bang for the buck" glass-wise
Some vortex stuff has been getting very good reviews, and looks to be good bang for the buck
Others:
Leupy: I have seen firsthand, and many secondhand reports of issues with tracking correctly. In other words, after dialing out to 800, they won't return to zero. They skip or overtravel while dialing.
AFTER you get good glass, I recommend looking at replacing that cheap plastic stock. Those stocks tend to stress into the barrel when loading support or bipods. Get something pre-bedded or bedded by a good smith. Look for and adjustable comb, adjustable LOP, and, if you like, detachable magazines. I like the McCree Chassis, but there are plenty of fine options.
AFTER you get a decent stock, then look at muzzle devices. Brakes and cans, cans and brakes. They reduce recoil and help you spot your own splash and deliver effective second shot corrections, or just get back on target.
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So what do you see most often for magnification? Seems to me that something like 8-25 might be the hot ticket.
Does anyone actually use their retical to range? Seems like it would be a good practice to learn, cause you may not always have your range finder. From what you have seen, does the retical have an effect on ranging thru to scope?
Sorry for all the questions, but there is sooo much info out there that it just gets as blurry as my right eye. :D
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So what do you see most often for magnification? Seems to me that something like 8-25 might be the hot ticket.
I, personally, like my 15x. I rarely have to dial back to avoid soda-straw syndrome, but I can still have a good sight picture on a MOA target at 800. I don't like having to run my mag to find my target, just another thing to monkey around with for no real gain. The only thing more magnification gives you is a more finite sight picture, it will not make you, the rifle, or anything else more accurate.
I find folks who run much over 20x tend to have to dial back quite a bit to find their targets, then dial in to make their reticle correct for firing their shot. Higher mag also equals more mirage. A fixed 10x will do most people just fine. Unless you are running a FFP scope, you only have one mag setting where your reticle is correct.
Does anyone actually use their retical to range? Seems like it would be a good practice to learn, cause you may not always have your range finder. From what you have seen, does the retical have an effect on ranging thru to scope?
A lot of people do, including yours truly, up until about 3 months ago when I broke down and purchased a Swaro Laserguide. As far as LRFs go, unless you are willing to spend close to or more than $1k, don't waste your money. Your $200-400 Cabela's hunting LRF simply will not suffice much past 400 or 500.
Even if you do have a nice LRF, learn to mil range. Equipment fails, have an alternate method. Do not rely on appearance of object, bracketing, or unit of measure, as I can make anyone screw these up pretty easily.
Yes, the reticle is used to measure your target in mils or MOA, and if you know the dimensions of your target, you can get suprisingly close to the actual range.
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/247495_617616101600532_883285602_n.png)
Mil reading is ~0.8
(Target size in inches) X (27.7 for yards) = Constant
(Target size in inches) X (25.4 for meters) = Constant
24 X 27.7 = 666.48
(Constant) / (Mil Reading) = Range in yards/meters
666.48 / 0.8 = 833.1 yards
One thing I always forget to mention: Scope mounts and levels. Get quality rings and rails. Level, Loctite, and torque everything, and set your level using a plum line. I use an el cheapo scope level that works fine for me.
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The most common thing I see with new shooters is skimped glass. Optics will make or break your rifle and your performance. Good glass needs to have high light transmission, good clarity, parallax adjustment (forget about focus, you won't need it), it needs to track correctly (box test), needs to have matching reticle and dials.
I took a 2 day precision rifle class last weekend and was amazed at some of the scopes I saw to be honest. Get something good and only buy it once. You mention forget about the focus if you have a parallax adjustment. I have a Nightforce 5.5-22x50 scope on the R700 I was using and throughout the 2 days I was having a heck of a time multiple times a day getting the reticle dark enough to see. Had to keep messing with the focus since one minute it would be cloudy and the next would be sunny. What is the best way to get the focus just right so I don't have to mess with it?
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I have a Nightforce 5.5-22x50 scope on the R700 I was using and throughout the 2 days I was having a heck of a time multiple times a day getting the reticle dark enough to see. Had to keep messing with the focus since one minute it would be cloudy and the next would be sunny. What is the best way to get the focus just right so I don't have to mess with it?
1) Your glass most likely came with a sunshade. Use it. It helps protect your objective lens, makes your glass less sensitive to light changes, and minimizes scope flash (if you are concerned with such things)
2) Nightforces are usually set pretty well for most people right out of the box, if you do need to make adjustments do the following:
-Set mag to highest setting
-Set parallax to infinity symbol
-Look through your scope and INSTANTLY determine if your reticle is in focus. Do not squint and look at it for a long time, do not attempt to look through it and make adjustments at the same time. Your eye will gradually acclimate, and you will not have a solid adjustment.
!!! YOU ARE ONLY CONCERNED WITH RETICLE FOCUS !!! I recommend looking into the sky for this so you are not concerned with anything but the reticle.
If it is not instantly in focus, make an adjustment one way or the other (counter-clockwise is usually best with NF) and check again. It may take several turns. Once you are close you can quickly make small adjustments until the reticle is as crisp as possible (while looking through the scope, key word is "quickly"). Set your lock ring and never touch it again.
What you experienced was most likely the result of eyestrain due to your reticle not being in focus. Your eye acclimating to the out-of-focus reticle got worn out and would occasionally give up on trying to compensate. Also, if you are shooting into the sun without a sunshade, I would expect nearly any reticle to get washed out.
Just for my info, whose class did you take?
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I did have the sunshade on and tried the pointing the rifle at the sky when messing with the focus once but had the power level low and don’t remember where the parallax setting was. I will make sure the magnification setting is on high and parallax to infinity next time I mess with the scope. It was taken up at 88 Tactical. Thanks!
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Gentlemen
Glad that you are using the ENGC facilities for the enjoyment of shooting.
I do have a problem with the picture of a shooting benched rolled up on it's front. This is not how they were designed to be used or the purpose that ENGC supplies them to the members. Please respect ENGC property and use the property in the manner they were intended.
Thank You
Chris Davies
ENGC VP
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We all respect your concerns. It will not happen again.
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Thank you. Enjoy the range and have a great summer of shooting
CD
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That was my actions. As stated, won't happen again.
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i am also sorry.
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Thanks for the understanding - as others have said there was certainly no ill intent. ENGC has a great facility and the last thing any of us would want to do is harm it.
Going to take the targets back to the farm this weekend and see if I can't stretch it out to 900-1000 yards or so.....