NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
General Categories => Information Arsenal => Topic started by: JTH on December 29, 2014, 11:28:42 PM
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Recently, I've seen a number of people on various Facebook pages asking "What Gun Should I Get..." types of questions.
In the vast majority of cases, well-meaning but clueless people immediately pipe up with answers specifying EXACTLY what gun they should get. (Which is pretty amazing, since they don't normally bother to start by asking WHY someone wants a gun.)
Also in a majority of those cases, either 1) the person asking already knows what gun they are going to buy, and simply wants validation of their (often poor) choice, or 2) the person takes random advice from people who don't know anything about them or their situation, and buys a gun that they don't understand and won't ever actually shoot more than once (which is probably good, considering the number of people who suggest really poor-quality firearms).
So I wrote about how that feels from my perspective. (And I'm sure that a lot of you feel the same way.)
http://precisionresponse.wordpress.com/2014/12/29/what-gun/ (http://precisionresponse.wordpress.com/2014/12/29/what-gun/)
I note: I am perfectly happy to talk guns and give advice and suggestions, IF the person asking is actually serious about trying to find a gun for a purpose that involves actually shooting said gun. People should feel free to ask for help, in that case!
That does bring up the question: So, if someone does ask a version of the "what gun should I buy" question, what information do we need to ask of them so that we can give them a good answer?
What do we need to know, first, before we make any suggestions?
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Excellent article! I am amazed at the casual facebookers who ask these questions daily & sometimes hourly on a few of the popular local gun pages.
I am sure that you also want to grow your hair out just to pull it out when you see this question....."where can I get my ccw cheap?".....followed by at least 3 instructors with a combined experience of 12 months racing each other to offer the class for less than $100! Wow that never gets old
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We need to know what, if any, previous experience they have.
How much do they intend to train and practice with the gun?
Do they have the strength to rack the slide? Do they have the strength to pull a DA revo trigger?
What do they think they are most comfortable with, semi or revo, from previous experience, if any?
What is their budget?
What is their intended use for the handgun? SD? Plinkin'? Competition? Carry?
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When I was in the gun selling biz, I didn't recommend brands and tried to get them to hold several types of handguns to see what fit their hands the best. Most appreciated that and usually didn't chose the one their "friend" recommended.
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the first and most important question they should ask, would be to there wife, CAN I BUY A GUN! I am on several face book pages and cannot believe how many people are selling guns that are only 2 months old, Ive asked a few, mostly its, the wife got pissed!
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The one that cracks me up are on some of the FB for sale groups that people post "$250 cash looking for a first 9mm." No other details most of the times I question if it is a scam....
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As someone who is fairly new to the buying scene and has had to make the decisions about why I want one I want to thank you for "putting on paper" the process we, the noobies, should go through when choosing a gun. I am currently starting to look for a full size gun for potential competition and this is a great primer for me to us in narrowing the field.
Thanks to all in the thread that have clarified that process. It is greatly appreciated.
That being said... what gun should I buy?
Just kidding. ;D
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That being said... what gun should I buy?
Taurus Judge.
/thread.
:P
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I am sure that you also want to grow your hair out just to pull it out when you see this question....."where can I get my ccw cheap?".....followed by at least 3 instructors with a combined experience of 12 months racing each other to offer the class for less than $100! Wow that never gets old
No kidding. Particularly when I see that one of them talks about their class starting at 2pm and being finished by 5pm.
If I was a professional auctioneer I couldn't cover the required material in that amount of time, much less including the range time!
I have this schizophrenic attitude towards the required NE CCW class, really.
On the one hand, I'm not thrilled that people need to jump through hoops and spend lots of money so that they are "allowed" by the state to carry tools for effective self-defense. Plus, much of the material taught in the class should already be KNOWN prior to anyone carrying. The legislatively-mandated curriculum seems to want CCW instructors to first teach the NRA Basic pistol course, then teach a Handgun Skills Course, follow that up with a Legal Issues course, and then have a range qualification.
Plus some extras.
That's incredibly stupid. People have to come to the class with an appropriate handgun and gear, and be able to use it---yet the class is supposed to teach people 1) appropriate handgun and gear choices, and 2) safety and technique with said firearm. Either we should be teaching it to them, OR they should know it in the first place. Pick one!
...and yet, at the same time, since there is a mandated curriculum, I want to make sure that if my students have to sit through it, I want to do a good job of giving them good information. And so, to my mind there is a certain minimum amount of time this class is going to take, because if the instructor is going to do their job teaching the mandated curriculum, it WILL take awhile to cover everything in a useful fashion.
So hearing about people's 3-hour classes, taught by folks who don't demonstrate good safety habits (example: everyone remember Great Plains Firearms Training's picture we saw awhile back with students pointing real guns at the backs of each other's heads?), who can't really shoot themselves (hint: if your grip looks like any of these (https://flic.kr/p/pEezti), your stance looks like any of these (https://flic.kr/p/qAQ6eX), and you can't define the difference between a bowling draw and a fishing draw...), giving poor advice about gun selection and carry habits (condition three? NO.)---and worst of all, comes from people who don't understand effective teaching (which is based on the level of student understanding)....
...yeah, that annoys me. Greatly.
[sigh]
Of course that gets followed up by students saying how great the class was, and how much they loved it, and how much they learned---because they don't have anything to compare it to, and have no idea what a good class is like.
Hm. Yeah, that's one of my pet peeves. You may have noticed. :)
the first and most important question they should ask, would be to there wife, CAN I BUY A GUN! I am on several face book pages and cannot believe how many people are selling guns that are only 2 months old, Ive asked a few, mostly its, the wife got pissed!
:)
I have the opposite problem---whenever I want to buy a gun, my wife is fine with it as long as she ALSO gets a new gun. And her gun tastes are more expensive than mine, most of the time! :( (She also keeps picking calibers that I don't shoot. At least now she is reloading her own ammo for her Open gun...)
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Well I decided long ago to get the little lady a 5 shot revolver as its reliable and she'll be able to handle it in a panic. If you can't kill'em with 5, you shouldn't be shooting, eh? This I feel is really true because she only gets out to the range every couple of years. She likes pink so that's what we settled on. Fits in her purse nice and all that and she can load it from empty pretty quick if someone came into our house.
Our first range trip I let give it a go with my "Colt 45". Figured good enough for grand daddy against "The Hun", good enough man stopper for us. She didn't like the "kick".
P.S. I still think "Rex Sport" is a fake name .....
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Dear Lord:
Please give me the wisdom, strength, and fortitude to stay entirely out of this here mess.
sfg
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Dear Lord:
Please give me the wisdom, strength, and fortitude to stay entirely out of this here mess.
You know you want to comment! Do it! DO IT! :)
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Dear Lord:
Please give me the wisdom, strength, and fortitude to stay entirely out of this here mess.
sfg
You know you want to comment! Do it! DO IT! :)
Please standby for endorsement of the .357Sig.... 3...2...1.... :P
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Dear Lord:
Please give me the wisdom, strength, and fortitude to stay entirely out of this here mess.
sfg
But you did respond when I recently posted "What Gun Should I Buy".......appreciated the response...
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People have to come to the class with an appropriate handgun and gear, and be able to use it
Most people realize a desire and the right to own that desire. Unfortunately the rest of the knowledge is often neglected and sorely missed when needed.
As enthusiasts, many of us persue the knowledge. It escapes use that possibly the greater majority are not as interested.
As pointed out, there is a need for knowledge, but forcing knowledge takes away the right.
It is one thing to use firearms for hunting and recreation. When related to self-defense, there is much more at stake and many people only realize the desire and neglect knowledge that will aid their own defense and what to expect in the aftermath of their action. Quite possible one of the most important decisions a person can make in their life, yet treated with minor regard since it suits a desire and is provide by right.
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But you did respond.....
Well, if you've ever had a weak moment, you'll understand...........
Aw, Heck....Just go buy a Springfield .40XDM and...
Actually, get Two (2) of them: A Little Bitty Shorty One for CCW and the Big Loooooong One for (a) IDPA, (b) USPSA, and (c) Blowing Up at the Range.
Problem Solved. Those are all the handguns you'll ever, ever neeeeeeeeeed!
[Don't listen to These Other Guys!!!]
sfg
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I swear I'm going to pistol whip the next gun store employee I hear recommending an Airweight J-frame for a woman's first handgun.
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I swear I'm going to pistol whip the next gun store employee I hear recommending an Airweight J-frame for a woman's first handgun.
OK..........Just don't use a............J-Frame.
sfg
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OK..........Just don't use a............J-Frame.
sfg
Nah...that's why I carry a CZ. Commie-designed steel framed handguns make great blunt weapons.
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I swear I'm going to pistol whip the next gun store employee I hear recommending an Airweight J-frame for a woman's first handgun.
Weirdly enough, one of the things a Hi-Point really IS good for!
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Interesting article, as always.
Interesting thread as well.
I recommend renting or borrowing something you have an interest in. A few magazines down range will give you a good feel for the handling, recoil etc.
I'm thinking of buying a 45ACP. I want to use it in USPSA, probably Limited 10.
Three I like, no special order, CZ97BD, Glock 21(41could work also) and S&W M&P45.
The first one eliminated is the CZ. It isn't on the approved list of production guns, plus guns and magazines are hard to get.
Glock and SW are plentiful, guns and magazines, and there is no difficulty in getting holsters or what not.
Thinking a trip to the Bullet Hole is in order since they rent both of these.
An added bonus, 45 ammo is readily available. Even more important, I can reload it ;D
Nah...that's why I carry a CZ. Commie-designed steel framed handguns make great blunt weapons.
Kinda my thought on my SW5906 :laugh:
No kidding. Particularly when I see that one of them talks about their class starting at 2pm and being finished by 5pm.
I think my class ran from 8AM and didn't finish until 8PM (or later). Course we had the obligatory 5 shot snubby with no speed loaders. And there was the guy with the brand new handgun that he never shot before range time.
There was so much info that someone with a modicum of firearms experience didn't need. The firing pin hits the primer? Who'd a thunk it?
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I recommend renting or borrowing something you have an interest in. A few magazines down range will give you a good feel for the handling, recoil etc.
Seeing how the gun SHOOTS is just a really good idea.
I have lately started cringing every time I hear someone say "just go with whatever feels good in your hand"---because folks new to guns have no idea what version of "feels good" equates to "shoots well for them."
"Just go to the gun store and handle everything in 9mm. Buy whichever feels best to you."
.....NO!
As you said, SHOOTING them to get a _real_ feel for the gun works much better.
A hunk of Play-Doh feels good in my hand. That doesn't mean I want the frame of my gun made of it. :)
I'm thinking of buying a 45ACP. I want to use it in USPSA, probably Limited 10.
Three I like, no special order, CZ97BD, Glock 21(41could work also) and S&W M&P45.
The first one eliminated is the CZ. It isn't on the approved list of production guns, plus guns and magazines are hard to get.
Glock and SW are plentiful, guns and magazines, and there is no difficulty in getting holsters or what not.
Note that for Lim-10, it doesn't need to be on the list of approved Production guns....
I think my class ran from 8AM and didn't finish until 8PM (or later).
{SNIP}
And there was the guy with the brand new handgun that he never shot before range time.
There was so much info that someone with a modicum of firearms experience didn't need. The firing pin hits the primer? Who'd a thunk it?
Yep. You can tell quite clearly that the curriculum was designed by a committee that set requirements based on a significant lack of understanding.
...and because they wrote it that way, apparently lots of people think they can show up with NO firearms knowledge, and be taught everything they need to know all at once.
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[/quote]As you said, SHOOTING them to get a _real_ feel for the gun works much better.
That's how I picked my G17. Liked it best of the 9mm pistols rented.
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For the big city boyz, running down to the metro firing range and renting out $500 of test guns may be an option.
The American way is to just buy as many guns as you can afford and toss the ones you don't like in the back of the gun safe. It's just good for the economy.
Joking aside, a lot of buyers don't know what they want or neglect honesty on their first purchase. Lot of people have limited choice (their local gun store and don't know their options), or no access to trying out various firearms. A lot of people depend on the opinion of others, with those opinions being totally worthless. Some are price driven assuming bargins apply to everything. I have seen people buy a POS because it was $50 less than what they should have bought.
I just got a family "what handgun should I buy" text the other day. Everyone chimed in with what they have. I was the one that asked "what are you going to use it for?" amid suggestions from .44 mag to official Red Ryder, carbine action, two-hundred shot range model air rifle (think the BB gun was ethanol induced since it is not a handgun at all).
Pistol, revolver, single action, double action, SA/DA, controls, weight, sights, grips, calibers, convertable, modifications,target, competion, defense...lotta options that a simple "what do you got" can never cover.
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I have the opposite problem---whenever I want to buy a gun, my wife is fine with it as long as she ALSO gets a new gun. And her gun tastes are more expensive than mine, most of the time!
Amen!
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Lorimor came up with a good list of questions to ask of a "What Gun..." person:
We need to know what, if any, previous experience they have.
How much do they intend to train and practice with the gun?
Do they have the strength to rack the slide? Do they have the strength to pull a DA revo trigger?
What do they think they are most comfortable with, semi or revo, from previous experience, if any?
What is their budget?
What is their intended use for the handgun? SD? Plinkin'? Competition? Carry?
In my article, the ones I posted as my "Top Three" were:
Is this for daily carry, range practice, or home defense?
What experience do you have with guns? With rifles, shotguns, or handguns?
Are you actually going to practice with this?
...which, I note, match several of his, too. Looking at the situation, I tend to think of those "top three" as the starting point of helping someone choose a gun. (And it works for people wanting a second gun, or a third gun...)
I really do think the most important question is: What is the purpose of this gun? (What is it FOR?)
Not only does it tell you what they want it for, but it also tends to tell you a lot about their knowledge base. Example: "So, what are you going to the use the gun for?" "Well, probably concealed carry but I was thinking of trying some NRA Bullseye competitions with it, too."
That tells you quite a bit about their understanding of firearms, CCW, and bullseye competition. :)
That first question gives you a purpose--which can narrow down a huge set of possibilities to a much narrower set.
To me, the second most important question is "How much experience do you have with firearms, handguns in particular?"
They want a carry pistol, really like the idea of a titanium j-frame in .357Mag (due to really good marketing), but have no actual previous firearms experience....yeah, that's not going to be a good choice. (And no, I don't think a revolver is a good choice for a first-ever self-defense weapon, for anyone who is serious about self-defense. If the person just wants a self-defense talisman, sure, why not? But otherwise, no.)
If they don't know how to shoot, is getting them the BFG3000 as their first gun a really good idea? Do they even know enough to be safe? Will they be able to make appropriate choices of ammunition and gear? (NO NYLON HOLSTERS! STAHP!)
And third, "Are you going to practice with this gun?"
Granted, most people are going to say "Sure, yeah!" but you can generally get a good idea of the real answer from the discussion, and that'll help you determine how much effort you should put into attempting to steer them to a actual effective self-defense weapon versus merely a gun that shoots bullets out the muzzle.
If they aren't going to practice, and REALLY want that Judge---sure, why not? It'll be equally as ineffective in their hands as a better self-defense choice would be, and it'll make them happy--and it'll be just as potentially effective as any other gun would be in the hands of someone who doesn't know what they are doing.
Thoughts? Is there a question that is more important that we need to know before these first three?
I like Lormior's budget/hand issue questions. I'm not so sure about the "which do you like better, semi-auto or revolver" question, though, if talking about a self-defense gun. General range practice, cowboy action shooting, ICORE, sure, but I'm not really sure how much their own preference for semi-auto over revolver matters when talking self-defense weapons IF they are actually going to practice with said gun.
Any other questions we should ask after those top three? (Or instead of those top three?)
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For the big city boyz, running down to the metro firing range and renting out $500 of test guns may be an option.
I got to thinking about this, and since I couldn't tell if you were meaning to state a serious problem in a funny fashion or just being funny....
I tend to think that by the time someone is ready to try actually shooting the possibilities, they should have narrowed the field down to two or three. Having clarified the reason for the gun buy narrows the field a lot. Looking at reputable offerings in an appropriate caliber (in the budget range of the buyers) narrows it further. Once at a gun counter, checking the frame for grip, trigger for ability, sights for view tends to reduce it further--and generally by that time, there are only a couple of choices left.
We can't always try out all firearms we might like---but between potential range rentals and folks who have guns (we are assuming the potential gun owner contacted an actual gun owner for help in the first place, and gun owners tend to be pretty cool about letting people try their guns), most of the time I think people can have a chance to try out their potential buy before spending the money.
Most people don't do this, of course--but most people don't actually do anything resembling research to make good choices in terms of buying firearms, either.
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This is a REALLY long thread for absolutely no reason at all. The solution is simple. Buy a KiloLima K-1, and if you can't find that in the local gun store, buy a XDm.
Solution...BAM! That JUST happened.
Fly
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This is a REALLY long thread for absolutely no reason at all. The solution is simple. Buy a KiloLima K-1, and if you can't find that in the local gun store, buy a XDm.
Solution...BAM! That JUST happened.
...and the sad thing is that (though I know in your case you are kidding) this is the type of response that many people get, no matter what kind of situation they are in, no matter what amount of experience (or lack thereof) they have.
[sigh]
Whenever I hear a question starting with "What Gun Should I..." it is hard not to cringe--because between the loads of people with immediate answers of "You gotta buy the ThunderBlaster3000!" and the loads of questioners whose conclusions later all tend to be variations on "Well, I really liked this [completely inappropriate-for-the-situation low-quality pile of crap with no aftermarket support and no gear/equipment available for it] so I think [in spite of all logical suggestions to the contrary] I'm going to buy it"---I just want to blank them all out.
Which makes it hard to really help the people who want help, need help, and will appreciate (and listen to!) help.
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...and the sad thing is that (though I know in your case you are kidding)
Me? Kidding?! I'm Mr. Serious.
Okay...now for a little more serious reply.
[serious]
If a shooter has learned the fundamentals and practiced them until they become natural, then barring a pistol that is completely the wrong size for their hands or has some other physical aspect that will not work with their hands (reaching the magazine or slide release for example), then it doesn't matter too much what they choose in regards to shooting it well. As I have demonstrated at the local matches, I'm no expert shot, but I have found that the fundamentals transfer between guns quite well.
So this just leaves us with the purpose of the gun. Plinking, competition, CC, nightstand gun? I don't know that the "feels good in the hand" aspect really matters that much if they REALLY learn proper grip, trigger finger placement, support hand purpose, etc., etc. I can't say that a Glock feels that natural in my hands, but the only reason I shoot my XDm better than a Glock is because I am more accustomed to the trigger.
Fundamentals are key followed by consideration of purpose.
[/serious]
Fly
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I tend to think that by the time someone is ready to try actually shooting the possibilities, they should have narrowed the field down to two or three. Having clarified the reason for the gun buy narrows the field a lot. Looking at reputable offerings in an appropriate caliber (in the budget range of the buyers) narrows it further. Once at a gun counter, checking the frame for grip, trigger for ability, sights for view tends to reduce it further--and generally by that time, there are only a couple of choices left.
Maybe, but "trial and error" does happen, and sometimes you just don't know that something isn't totally right until you've lived with it for a while. It certainly happens with fowling pieces. I was 100% totally absolutely positively sure that a rather expensive over/under fit me just right -- but could never connect with it well in the real world during pheasant season. Happens with defensive sidearms too, I think.
So sometimes, the answer to "What gun should I buy?" is, "This one that I have for sale right now." :)
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This is a REALLY long thread for absolutely no reason at all. The solution is simple. Buy a KiloLima K-1, and if you can't find that in the local gun store, buy a XDm.
Solution...BAM! That JUST happened.
Fly
Words to live by! #CoolKidsClub